Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (5 Viewers)

[Josh Steinberg]

I was a reader for TNG at the time Piller came in. More than anything he changed the culture of the kind of material that was being submitted and accepted, as well as doing a great job, IMHO, of handling the writing staff. Granted I am probably biased because he gave me a lot of opportunities to submit treatments (and he gave me a better job), but in my opinion he did more to help TNG than to hurt it.

I totally believe that. I think it's possible that he just ran out of steam by the time Insurrection rolled around. It also doesn't seem to help that Rick Berman encouraged a lot of bad ideas in that script instead of suggesting that they throw it away and come up with a new idea. At a certain point, the blame can't all be on the writer - the writer writes what he's been hired to write. And one of the difficulties of working on a movie vs. a weekly show is that if this week's episode doesn't come out as good as everyone hoped, oh well, there's always next week; when you're doing a movie, the stakes are a little bit higher.

There's absolutely no question in my mind that TNG became a better show once he climbed on board.

 

[Carabimero]

Yes, of all the people I worked with back then, he's the one I miss the most. I still have some encouraging notes he gave me on one of my TNG treatments. He made me believe I could write professionally, that I had what it took, and for that I'll always be grateful. I still mourn his loss.

 

[trevanian]

I was a reader for TNG at the time Piller came in. More than anything he changed the culture of the kind of material that was being submitted and accepted, as well as doing a great job, IMHO, of handling the writing staff. Granted I am probably biased because he gave me a lot of opportunities to submit treatments (and he gave me a better job), but in my opinion he did more to help TNG than to hurt it.

From what I've heard things settled down by season 4, but during s3 there were problems between him and the better writers (Snodgrass and Behr), weren't there? I remember Snodgrass complaining (with good reason) about what happened to her ENSIGNS OF COMMAND, and I am horrified by the way her take on THE HIGH GROUND turned out relative to the original notion -- that you'd have a world that is essentially 1770s America striving to be free and Picard comes to realize the Romulans are the French, justifiably aiding the US surrogate, while the Federation is the oppressive British - now THAT would have been something.

The only firsthand stuff I know is what I heard while waiting for my pitch session. Somebody mistakenly gave GR a copy of what apparently turned out to be REDEMPTION pt 1 (this was December 1990) and he was apparently having a cow over it upstairs, so PIller had to go handle it and miss my pitch session, which got turned over to Taylor. He was telling an admin asst that you don't ever give Gene the first treatment or words to that affect. He gave me a kind of shamefaced grin, then went offf to fix things.

Subsequently I read an account (STARLOG maybe?) of a writer who was in there right around the same week I was, who wound up selling them the SILICON AVATAR outline. Based on that, it sounds like Piller was a really cool guy in terms of getting firsttimers to relax and not let nerviness get the better of them during the pitches.

 

[Carabimero]

Yes, Piller was a really cool guy who turned my work-for-hire job into a real salaried job.

But boy can I relate to your story. Sadly for me Roddenberry got a hold of a treatment I wrote that both Snodgrass and Piller championed. It was about a disabled character, and Gene read it and went ape shit, saying "no one is disabled in the 24th century." Imagine my frustration when stories with similar themes later got produced. I know he is beloved by fans, but Roddenberry killed every good idea I had because he actually started to believe his 24th century conceit, and took it to such extreme that it made it hard to have any good drama. In my opinion, a lot of potentially good episodes (not just mine), never saw the light of day because of it.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

From what I've read about Roddenberry and TNG in recent years, it sounds like there are too many examples of that story, Alan - I can only imagine how immensely frustrating that would be.

Amazing that Gene could say "no one is disabled in the 24th century" on a show featuring a blind engineer! But I wholeheartedly believe it.

I think in general, the "no conflict" edict was a good idea. There's nothing I hate more watching a TV show when familiar characters are getting into arguments that seem more motivated by the writer's pen than the story at hand. One of my favorite things about all the different versions of Trek and especially TNG is that our heroes have jobs and responsibilities and they're all good at them, and at a minimum they all respect each other - so we don't have filler episodes with a young engineer trying to make Geordi look bad to steal his job, or Riker and Troi wanting to go on a date but misinterpreting obvious signals to prolong the separation, Worf suspecting Picard of being a traitor but really Picard is on a secret mission, etc. I hate all of that kind of stuff because you can see through it a mile away. If a plot only works because of willful misunderstanding, then it doesn't work. Star Trek generally avoided those types of plots and I'm grateful.

(That's why that plot in the last season of Enterprise where one of the characters was a "traitor" didn't really ring true to me - I didn't believe those characters would keep those kinds of secrets from each other or be so easily persuaded to do wrong. Riker with the Pegasus in TNG is a great example of how to handle that properly - we all know Riker isn't going to the dark side, so it's a one episode story and not an entire arc.)

But while I think it was correct that humanity in general got along better, and that Starfleet as an organization functioned better than 20th century organizations, I also agree with the idea that Gene pushed that idea too far at times.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Slighty off-topic question: has anyone here seen Roddenberry's show The Lieutenant? I just noticed that Warner Archive has it - not sure if this is news or if I'm last to the party. I've never seen any of it before, but heard it mentioned frequently in TOS-related histories like the Cushman books and the Solow-Justman book. I'm interested but not sure if I'm blind buy level of interested.

 

[Carabimero]

Slighty off-topic question: has anyone here seen Roddenberry's show The Lieutenant? I just noticed that Warner Archive has it - not sure if this is news or if I'm last to the party. I've never seen any of it before, but heard it mentioned frequently in TOS-related histories like the Cushman books and the Solow-Justman book. I'm interested but not sure if I'm blind buy level of interested.

Yes, I have The Lieutenant and I really liked it for the most part. A few misses but a solid series. Roddenberry is at his best as a producer, not a writer. And he was at his best on this series.

 

[Carabimero]

From what I've read about Roddenberry and TNG in recent years, it sounds like there are too many examples of that story, Alan - I can only imagine how immensely frustrating that would be.

Amazing that Gene could say "no one is disabled in the 24th century" on a show featuring a blind engineer! But I wholeheartedly believe it.

When I raised the exact same objection, Roddenberry told me that it was my "treatment of the disability" in the overall arc. My story was what Heinlein would call "The man who learns better," about a disabled person like Geordi who is offered a 24th-century "fix" but unlike Geordi my character discovers the fix changes who he fundamentally is, and in the end he realizes he is happier and more "able" with his disability. He is a stronger individual with it and the thematic revelation played on Roddenberry's theme of strength from diversity. Piller called it a "beautiful story of strength" but Gene's objection, to clarify, was that "no one lives with a disability in the 24th century."

I'm still proud of the story. I pitched it, they bought it; it went to treatment. Piller asked for an outline despite Roddenberry's objections, but it never went to script.

I guess my original point in all this got lost: I'll always be grateful to Michael Piller for giving me a chance. It didn't work out for me, but a chance is all I've ever wanted. I can live with having had my shot. Piller was a great man if for no other reason because he saw past legal paranoia and opened the doors to people who otherwise never would have had a chance.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Roddenberry objections or not, I for one would have enjoyed watching that episode.

And thanks for your recommendation, I'm gonna pull the trigger on The Lieutenant DVD set. If you liked it, that's really all I need to know.

 

[FanCollector]

Slighty off-topic question: has anyone here seen Roddenberry's show The Lieutenant? I just noticed that Warner Archive has it - not sure if this is news or if I'm last to the party. I've never seen any of it before, but heard it mentioned frequently in TOS-related histories like the Cushman books and the Solow-Justman book. I'm interested but not sure if I'm blind buy level of interested.

I bought it without having seen any of it first, and I've enjoyed it a lot. You should be aware going in that it's a type of show, very common to the era, I call a modified anthology. The lead character is very much a reactor to the guest stars, who generally have the interesting stories. A synopsis of nearly every episode could begin with "Lt. Rice meets a..." They rarely make shows like that anymore, but if you like them (and I do), this is a good one.

 

[Jason_V]

Without having read any version of early Insurrection, the older I get, the more I tend to like the movie. It's not the best thing out there and some of it doesn't make any sense in context of the series, but it's...sweet. Maybe that's the wrong word for it, but that's how I see it.

In particular, the themes of standing up for what's morally right, calling out leaders who are morally corrupt and slowing down to enjoy life. Picard and Anij works okay for a "movie romance"...though I don't want to see her ever again. This does feel like a bigger budget TV episode, no doubt. A lot of the humor falls flat and Riker/Troi just...ugh. The manual steering column or whatever...gag me. But I can generally look past the crap to see the good.

And the Geordi/Picard scene...yeah, that's a good one...

 

[Sam Favate]

Have you folks seen this:

‘STAR TREK: DISCOVERY’ SERIES MIGHT BE ANOTHER SHOT FOR OLDER ‘NEXT GENERATION’ CREW’S APPROPRIATE SEND-OFF

http://www.inquisitr.com/3514624/st...r-next-generation-crews-appropriate-send-off/

While I agree that TNG was ill-served by its last movie (IMO, the worst of all Star Trek movies), I'm not sure the new series can offer the closure it needs. I'm also not sure the current regimes at Paramount and CBS could ever come together to produce a proper TNG film, despite the talk in this piece.

 

[Jason_V]

^ Sidenote on that: I was watching a "Top Ten Trek Movies" list on YouTube this weekend. Nemsis clocked in at #10...I kept giving the list a chance until it hit 7 or so with Generations. Stopped watching at that point.

Nemesis and Generations aren't in the top of anything.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I don't buy any of the speculation in that article.

For what it's worth, I saw a full cast reunion (sans Frakes) in 2014, and the very first audience question was about whether they'd be willing to do more TNG, and to a person, the answer was a resounding "no". The reasons and tone of the no was different from person to person (LeVar Burton seemed most emphatic that he was done), and there was no animosity, but they did not seem willing to seriously entertain the notion of returning to Trek. It was a time in their lives that they cherished but not something they thought they could revisit. At this year's Star Trek Mission convention, Michael Dorn also added that the Captain Worf idea was completely dead.

I think some of the speculation has come from the idea that the new Trek show is said to be a seasonal anthology, and that the producers have said later seasons could take place in different time periods. I think that's caused some fans to speculate that a future season could involve TNG characters - which I suppose is technically true. But I don't think it's at all likely.

Believe me, I'd love to see more TNG. The cast is alive and active. Getting Data back would take only a few lines of dialogue to accomplish. But based on everything I've seen the cast say firsthand, I don't think it's in the cards.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

As part of my little celebration of Star Trek's 50th anniversary, I've been rereading the classic Trek behind the scenes books that I have. I have William Shatner's Star Trek Memories and Star Trek Movie Memories, Leonard Nimoy's I Am Not Spock and I Am Spock, and the Herb Solow/Robert Justman book Inside Star Trek. With the exception of I Am Not Spock, which came out before I was born, the rest I all got during their original publication runs and have revisited before, but it's been at least five years at this point. (I have the Marc Cushman books but am in no rush to revisit them, having just read them last year.) I also just ordered books by George Takei, James Doohan, Nichelle Nichols and Walter Koenig, and there's a recent biography on DeForest Kelley that I plan to pick up. (If there's anything obvious that I'm missing, let me know!)

While I was re-reading the Shatner, Nimoy and Solow/Justman book, I encountered references to other Roddenberry projects, as I had before. But the last time I read those books, there was simply no way to access that programming. To my surprise and delight, when I looked up some of those titles this time, I discovered that Warner Archive had put them all out on DVD-R. I just got a package from Amazon with The Lieutenant, Pretty Maids All In A Row, The Questor Tapes, Genesis II, Planet Earth and Strange New World. And I ordered Shatner's failed Barbary Coast series from eBay too. I'm not expecting greatness from any of these, but after being curious about them all for the better part of two decades, I'll finally get to see them myself. I can't think of a better time than during this 50th anniversary celebration to do so.

 

[FanCollector]

I would include Trek Classic: 25 Years Later by Edward Gross and The Star Trek Interview Book by Allan Asherman in that book collection. They include expansive, episode-specific interviews with people not interviewed in any other books.

Barbary Coast is fun. Do you like The Wild, Wild West and/or Switch? It's not as good, but it's kind of an amalgamation of the two.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

The Star Trek Interview Book was the first Trek book I ever had, my dad got it for me when I first started getting into the show as a kid. I have no idea where my copy is but I'd love to find it. I'm guessing it's somewhere in dad's attic. Will definitely look out for that other book.

I actually haven't seen either of the those shows, so I guess we'll find out. This year, I discovered that I do like westerns, and I pretty much always enjoy Shatner, so I'm thinking it'll be fun!

 

[FanCollector]

The Making of Star Trek is a landmark one also. The Star Trek Compendium, by Asherman, is probably the best basic reference work (although for your revisitation purposes, it may warrant skimming more than anything else).

 

[FanCollector]

Just stick with Barbary Coast past the pilot; Doug McClure is a vast improvement.

 

[Nelson Au]

Josh, been meaning to reply to this thread. Those are all good books I own and I read most them as well when they came out, so it's been a while. I have not read the bios on DeForest Kelley yet and I'm really curious about them, since Kelley himself never wrote the books, that was my only reason to mull so long. From Sawdust to Stardust was the earlier title and a new one I have little knowledge of is A Harvest of Memories: My Life and Times With a Remarkable Gentleman Actor. All I know of the second was the author spent time with him, as a fan and became friends. Perhaps from afar? Sawdust to Stardust sounds like the better book that is a real biography. I found Doohan's book a real page turner, as well as George Takei, especially his experiences during WW2 in the relocation camps. Keonig's book I started but had trouble sticking with it. Same with Nichol's book. But I'll try to revisit them.

I've been curious about The Lieutenant TV series too. It's a chance to also see some TOS actors before Star Trek. I still haven't picked it up yet. I've been meaning to pick up The Questor Tapes too, I've seen it and liked it. Same with Genesis II and its sequel. I've seen some of the Barbary Coast as a little kid, so I don't remember much of it. That's a good description of it Lee, I have read the descriptions of the series and I have seen The Wild Wild West series.

Lee, I have not read or own the Interview book. That is another book sorely missing in my collection. I have an early edition of Asherman's Compendium book, agree it's a very good basic book. I wonder and never checked if he ever updated it. But I actually refer to Memory Alpha these days. Regarding The Making of Star Trek, when I first started to get into Star Trek, I read that book a few times! It is a early 1970's printing. In the late 1980's I never thought I'd actually find a first printing copy and I found a copy at a used book store by accident. I just checked it, I paid $10 for it. It's got some minor shelf wear. I think I have Edward Gross's 25 years later book.

Well, last week I watched The Naked Time again with original effects. I skipped Where No Man Has Gone Before. It brought me back, which surprised me, to one of my earliest experiences watching this episode when I was getting it. I was figuring out the characters. The sequence when they engage the warp engines and the bridge crew react to the effects, and the image dissolves to a star field and then the external view of the stars receding, it brought me back again to my youth and to The Outer Limits. TOL often used starfield images. ( I was less distracted this time by how Frank Da Vinci and George Takei and the crewman at the engineering station is not reacting to the sound the same as Shatner and others as they go into warp. I guess Marc Daniels was moving fast and missed it. ).

I see are on another thread a discussion about the new CGi effects which I've not joined in on. I think they are discussing if it's become your preferred version or not. Since the remaster was released, I've always watched Star Trek with the new effects. They are novel. Having watched the 4 episodes with the original effects, it's been pretty cool to go back. I don't see them as that deficient. They are mostly good effects of the Enterprise in planet orbits and fly-bys. The planet shots are all good and watching the original effects feels right because it's the way the series is and was made. I'm re-embracing the show as it originally was made. I've never really taken the time before to watch the remastered TOS with original effects. What surprises me is the recently restored Enterprise model now on display again at the Smithsonian. The released photos of the original model as it appears right after the series ended with its original paint job intact, has made me more aware of how the model looked. I've been studying those images closely. I know the weathering now. So I expect in later episodes like Space Seed I might be able to see that detail on the model as she comes along side the Botany Bay. The only time I see issues with the original effects are the matting effects and you see parts of the warp engines dissolve away.

Tonight I'll be watching The Enemy Within. It will be interesting if I have interesting reactions. Oh yeah, the remastered version does flip William Shatner and George Takei back the right way around verses the original during the early shots in the teaser. The original DVDs and laserdiscs have it the way it was broadcast. My guess; the original editor flipped the image so Kirk and Sulu face the correct direction where Fisher takes his flop on the rocks. Though it made it easy that Shatner's tunic has no delta insignia on it. Nor does the evil Kirk who beams aboard. I don't recall if if the missing insignia is explained by anyone. Maybe they left the insignia off as a way to show the evil Kirk as a mirror image and realized it wouldn't work.