Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (5 Viewers)

[Nelson Au]

The Who Mourns for Adonais chapter was quite interesting. As Lee has mentioned, many rewrites to improve all the characters. I hadn't any idea of the writer's original idea of Carolyn's having just lost a boyfriend and then having Scotty jump while she's on the rebound.And the sprucing up the idea of Apollo's real past of an ancient astronaut so the story is truly more bound in science then fantasy. One of the surprises was Roddenberry's push to make Kirk more proactive and combatant with Apollo. That really is there when you watch the episode. Kirk is not buying the whole thing at all! Plus Roddenberry's effort to make Kirk bigger to allow Shatner to play him bigger and hopes that it would benefit him at Emmy time in holes it would sooth Shatner's ego from Nimoy's popularity and Emmy nomination for the work from the year before. I had no idea the stunt man was hurt from Apollo zapping Scotty. And then Doohan trying it himself the next day only to find that they decide to use the stuntman's shot. And interesting how Coon changed the set up to leave Spock on the ship, to the detriment of Sulu being in Command and to Chekov's benefit of getting Spock's lines. It does seem to work better having Chekov offer to help Kirk to talk to Carolyn and Kirk saying he better handle it. Oh yeah, and it was amazing that the surprise ending made it all the way to final draft script, but it was NBC who nixed it at the lee nth hour. You wouldn't have that happen today. But the part I really found great was the recollections of Michael Forest and Leslie Parrish. It's really amazing they remember it so fondly for the story and the emotional side their characters went through. Perhaps for me, the limitations of the stage bound set of Mt. Olympus sort of degraded the episode for me. But I can put that aside and really focus on the story and the ideas and I can really appreciate the episode on that level. The emotional stuff is quite strong too, but because it not with one of the main characters, it's harder to invest in it. But I can see how Parrish can have those strong feelings for the episode herself. So far, this second book is really better then the first in some ways because of the added input from the actors.

 

[Ockeghem]

Nelson,I will start. Obviously some of these will be up to your interpretation. How about:

"Mrs. Surak."
ElaanMiramanee
The Horta

 

[Nelson Au]

Scott, you got 4 out of 4!I had all those on my list except Miramanee. I forgot about her! She was with Kirk's child. I guess by her dying, that satisfied NBC. It will be interesting to see how the writing went. I guess it wasn't an issue as she was married to Kirok. Unless there was another mother in the series, that finishes the question and you are the winner on this one. So the next question is yours Scott. As an aside, I had forgotten that Elinor Donahue was playing Jane Wyatt's daughter. So that was an interesting connection they both appear in Star Trek.

 

[FanCollector]

Scott still wins, but let us not forget Trelane's mother, the very antithesis of the "helicopter" parent.

Funny how memory works. In an interview, Marc Cushman mentioned that Leslie Parrish spoke to him after reading this second season book, and expressed surprise about the content of the original ending of the episode. As you point out, the censor-required change occurred after shooting had begun, so Ms. Parrish had to have known about the planned ending. But in all the years of watching and discussing the episode as it was shot, she must have forgotten the scripted tag. As for Miramanee, I am also curious about the exact timing of the rewrites, given that in the original version, Miramanee survives and presumably has the baby.

There seems to have been an issue with some writers favoring their own guest characters over the regular stars of the show. Dorothy Fontana in particular singles out that problem with first drafts from non-staff writers on the show. For a lot of shows at the time, or especially a couple of years earlier, that choice would not have been a problem. But Star Trek was one notch farther along the line from anthology to serial, and they were quite insistent that the crew (usually Kirk) had a major stake in the stories. As I have suggested here before, Who Mourns for Adonais? is structured so that Carolyn is the protagonist, and without a complete reimagining, there wasn't any way to change that fact (nor am I suggesting they should have done so). At the same time, there is no reason that Kirk couldn't be intelligent and active, even if the ultimate solution to the problem must lie with Carolyn. The rewrites also make use of Kirk's unique identity--none of us would relish serving Apollo for the rest of our lives, but such a setup is even more of a non-starter for Captain Kirk than for the rest of us. Apollo picked the wrong starship to grab, and the wrong captain to whom to say, "Relax! I'll take care of everything for you."

Sulu being in command, like so many of the things planned for Sulu, fell victim to the "well, that's OK, but wouldn't it be MORE interesting if..." mentality. Adonais was the beginning of a wave of episodes in which Spock gets to be in charge on purpose. (In the past, it was usually just when Kirk disappeared unexpectedly.) It does give us a new insight into Spock, plus more reason to cut back to the Enterprise during the course of the story. (Poor Sulu never got more than a minute or so of screen time when he was in command. One quick report to Kirk or a log entry, and then we wouldn't see the Enterprise again until the end of the show.) Except for The Galileo Seven and The Immunity Syndrome, Kirk was always going to go, but having the option of leaving Spock on the ship gave the writers at least one more template for using the characters differently. (Plus, I love the characterization of how much Spock hates having to stay. It's something that will recur and makes so much sense for the character.)

 

[Nelson Au]

"If you can't take care of your pets....."Lee, shoot, I totally forgot about Trelane's mother! That's another one for the list. Great catch.More great analysis Lee regarding the change to separate Kirk and Spock, that's true. Now that you bring it up and upon reading about it in the book, and it being shown to be done on purpose, it's very clear we see it more and more coming up in the second season. It's funny that in the very first episodes, we see Spock very disappointed he's not joining the landing party. How he asked Pike, 'we aren't going to go?' To The Corbomite Maneuver when Kirk tells Spock to stay in Command and the disappointed look on his face! Knowing what we know from the early chapters in the book, I can't help but more and more think of the reasons for this change was in part due to trying to sooth the feelings of both Nimoy who felt slighted, to Shatner who felt he was the star and that Nimoy's popularity was overshadowing that. So they do these things to make nice for them. And while they had this rivalry going on, they worked so well together. And ironically become great pals later in life. I'll have to find that interview with Parrish where she forgot about the surprise ending! It has been a while. I was also amused by the recollections of Doohan and Keonig and how she affected them. I was wondering if the famous dress going to be discussed and he covered it pretty well in the book.And yes, you are right, Carolyn is the protagonist of that story, yet they worked the scripted to make Kirk more the center of course. He was driving the action. And the more I watch that episode, the more I can see and feel for Carolyn as she knows she has to hurt Apollo and put down her own feelings and do the right thing.

 

[Ockeghem]

Guys,I will think up a question. If anyone has one in the mean time, go for it!

 

[FanCollector]

As much as the Spock character evolved, you're right--that burning desire to go and explore was there from the first pilot and never left. My favorite iteration of the many we see is probably in Return to Tomorrow, wherein Sargon earns Spock's undying loyalty for "ordering" Spock to beam down. Similarly entertaining there is Kirk calling McCoy's bluff when McCoy pretends he doesn't want to go also. Spock and McCoy are bad enough.... ever wonder what a pain Kirk must have been to his commanding officers when they wanted HIM to stay behind on the ship? And yes, it is worth noting that in three out of four consecutively filmed episodes (Adonais, The Doomsday Machine, Wolf in the Fold), Shatner and Nimoy have relatively few scenes together. Perhaps the producers were being sensitive to what Cushman suggests was their one real rough patch with each other. (Does anyone know when that Life Magazine photographer incident happened? Was it around this time?)

 

[Nelson Au]

You mean the incident where the photographer was there to document the process of putting the Spock make-up on and it did not go down well with Mr. Shatner? I'm not 100% clear I recall that whole story.I did a 30 second search and found quotes from Norman Spinard on StarTrek.com where he witnessed Shatner crossing out Spock lines so he had more lines then Nimoy. I don't know if it's the same time as that incident, but it is the same time as the feud.

 

[FanCollector]

Yes, that's more or less the story. Nimoy says the producers arranged it and others say Nimoy arranged it and the producers approved it, but a photographer from Life Magazine came to document the makeup process. No one had asked or even told Shatner and he was furious. (Shatner says he was annoyed because he hadn't been told and was, in all honesty, jealous about the attention and extra press going to Nimoy. James Doohan remembered the incident and suggested it was because Shatner was upset that the photographer was going to be there while his hairpiece was going to be applied.) Whatever the reason, Shatner wouldn't come to makeup while the photographer was there and Nimoy wouldn't let the photographer leave until he got his pictures. Everyone remembered it as a terrible day and one of the very few times filming was delayed because of the actors.I can't find any date more specific than "1967" for the incident, so I wondered if it was in that early period of filming the second season. And yes, Cushman's contribution is not to deny any problems on the set between them, but to isolate them to a particular time frame. In his analysis of sources, it was the weeks spent filming The Doomsday Machine (when Spinrad observed the script doctoring) and Wolf in the Fold that were the real low point for them in the first two years.

 

[Nelson Au]

"Annoyed Spock?"I had not recalled all the details when reading about the incident but I have a vague recollection of your description is what I recall. Except I don't recall it being an awful day on the Star Trek set, but it sure sounds like it was.But the line above I quoted from I thought was a well acted scene between them and goes to show how professional they both are as the performances in the episodes don't show any signs of their fight. I only read a few lines of the Amok Time entry and am surprised to read what I read regarding the source of the story idea. That's as far as I got.

 

[Nelson Au]

Scott, I figure you'll be stumping us with your numbers question?

 

[Ockeghem]

Scott, I figure you'll be stumping us with your numbers question?

Nelson,I haven't had much time to come up with a question. Anyone may feel free to take the next one if they wish.

 

[Nelson Au]

Well, as we wait for the next question, I found some more info on the feud.I do not mean to continue to stay on the lurid subject of the behind the scenes business of the actors, but I was curious. Not knowing the strength of the author's knowledge, I found an article on the subject. He does quote many sources so take it for what it is, or not.http://startrekdom.blogspot.com/2007/05/in-shadow-of-spock-great-shatnernimoy_06.html?m=1

 

[FanCollector]

I don't think it's lurid because, as the rewriting details of the second season make clear, it had a real effect on the shows themselves (not necessarily a bad effect, but an effect). The article seems well-sourced and reasonable, at least until the last couple of sentences.

 

[Nelson Au]

Lee, I guess I meant continuing to talk about the darker sides of our favorite actors. But you are right, it affected the series and mostly not in a bad way. I thought it was a nice way to put it, that they were like brothers who were fighting. It's hard to imagine the heights of fame Leonard Nimoy suddenly achieved right off the bat as Spock and both Shatner and Nimoy were not prepared for that.

 

[FanCollector]

Even if the show had middling ratings, Shatner and Nimoy had extremely high TVQ scores (meant to measure recognizability and popularity). Networks don't typically make decisions based on TVQ because advertisers don't pay based on TVQ, but it's worth noting that the show scored very highly and the two stars did also (Nimoy slightly more than Shatner). People knew about the show and the stars and had positive reactions to them, based on those scores. So you're right, Nimoy went from fourth-billed guest player on various westerns and crime shows to one of the ten or so most recognizable actors on television in a very short time.

 

[Nelson Au]

Okay, in contrast to our little discussion of the feud between Shatner and Nimoy, here's a totally off the cuff question without any vesting on my part.Since Kirk has said he owes Spock a dozen times over for his life, Name all the times Kirk and Spock save each other's lives. And one thing that surprised me in the Cushman book. He says that Roddenberry felt the first season Kirk was rather restrained, so they wanted him to go bigger in the second year. I guess that's true!

 

[FanCollector]

OK, let's start with the source of the question: Kirk saves Spock's life by disobeying orders in Amok Time.Spock saves Kirk's life by jumping in front of the deadly plant on Gamma Trianguli VI in The Apple.

 

[Ockeghem]

Nelson,

I think it could be argued that Kirk saves Spock's life in A Private Little War (before the initial beam-up). Does Spock save Kirk's life in The Tholian Web? Would you count Kirk being coerced to do something in Bread and Circuses to save Spock's life?

 

[Nelson Au]

Those are all valid! In each case, they try to save each other. Tholian Web was a good one. Kirk just couldn't sit by and let Spock and McCoy die! "Very wise Captain. No sense in sending up bullet ridden corpses."