Save Star Wars! (1 Viewer)

[Ruz-El]

OK RIchard, you are a victim in this, Lucas and Lucasfilm in their big, bad horrible corporate monopolization of a single creative property created by a single person that you have manged to parallel with all seriousness to some big business telephone company, has horribly victimized you. Please contact Lucasfilm as soon as possible to have compensation sorted out.


Since your so into very specific cases, how about showing a precedent where a single property book ,movie or piece of art created and owned by a sole person was deemed public property by the courts due to it's ownership being a monopoly?


I'm glad I simply like these films.. this thread is the type of surreal slant that Salvador Dahli wouldn't be able to handle.

 

[Alessandro]

OH please someone save Star Wars please help us even though Lucas has been successful at creating one the most beloved franchises in history some of us think we could have done better than what he did even though we are not worthy we think that we are worthy enough to take someone else's hard earned ideas and rework it for the better OH WOE IS US WHO DID NOT BUY THE BLU RAY'S CAUSE WE REALLY SHOWED HIM ALL 100 OF US.. Seriously guys get over it oh and while i am enjoying my Blu set you can all go back to talking about the Library of congress GEEZ how many times does one need to bring THAT up.

 

[RobertR]

OK RIchard, you are a victim in this, Lucas and Lucasfilm in their big, bad horrible corporate monopolization of a single creative property created by a single person that you have manged to parallel with all seriousness to some big business telephone company,

My, you assume a lot. Try getting my name right. Lucasfilm has the sole legal right to distribute the original films, just as AT&T was the sole legal supplier of telephone service. Ending that monopoly didn't make AT&T's assets "public property". Neither would ending Lucas' copyright. It would simply mean that others are free to distribute the films. How you manage to equate this with a demand for "compensation" is unfathomable. And since when is Lucasfilm Ltd. NOT a big business?

 

[Ruz-El]

Originally Posted by RobertR

My, you assume a lot. Try getting my name right. Lucasfilm has the sole legal right to distribute the original films, just as AT&T was the sole legal supplier of telephone service. Ending that monopoly didn't make AT&T's assets "public property". Neither would ending Lucas' copyright. It would simply mean that others are free to distribute the films. How you manage to equate this with a demand for "compensation" is unfathomable.

My getting your name wrong should show just how serious I take your arguments...


So now people can get stripped of the copyright to their creations just because "fans" think they can do a better job? You dream of a frightening world Robert. More power to you.

 

[RobertR]

You dream of a frightening world Robert.

A world where great works are not under the perpetual control of one man many frighten you, Russell, but not me.

 

[Ruz-El]

Originally Posted by RobertR

Originally Posted by Russell G [url=/t/315174/save-star-wars/90#post_3857905]

You dream of a frightening world Robert.

A world where great works are not under the perpetual control of one man many frighten you, Russell, but not me.

"A world where great works created by one man are forced away from them to be displayed against their wishes, setting a precedent where any works are can no longer be considered owned by the creator of said works."


There, fixed that up for you Robert. You can say that that is not what you are saying, but you are. In every post.

 

[RobertR]

"A world where great works created by one man are forced away from them to be displayed against their wishes

Wrong. Zero tangible property is taken, no ability to copy and distribute the works himself is taken. Zero, zilch, nada. Of course, since Lucas shows ZERO interest in distributing the originals, you can hardly argue that his ability to make money from them is harmed.

 

[David Deeb]

I can't believe this discussion! While I'd enjoy to see & own a copy of the original films on BD (and I didn't buy this set for that reason), there's nothing more scary than having Congress tell the owner of a product that he can, or can't alter the product and routinely re-package it. (Congress can do things that protect the public's safety of course) What else should we have them do? A company can't alter their logo? A food company can't change their ingredients in a favorite soft drink? A clothing company can't redesign their blue jeans? "Damn it those blue jeans aren't as I remember them in 1977!" All Lucas has to do is say he's selling units of his product and he can put any version he likes out for sale. He can have Greedo shoot first, second and third. He can put a sticker on the box. He can remove 20:00 minutes in the middle for no reason. Yes, he created a movie, but he owns it & he sells copies of it. I won't buy a copy of his films because I don't care for what he's done. He does seem to be ignoring his most ardent supporters. But he does own a company and he's selling units of his product! I for one hope our government works on some more important issues than this!

 

[Ruz-El]

Originally Posted by RobertR

Originally Posted by Russell G [url=/t/315174/save-star-wars/90#post_3857912]

"A world where great works created by one man are forced away from them to be displayed against their wishes

Wrong. Zero tangible property is taken, no ability to copy and distribute the works himself is taken. Zero, zilch, nada. Of course, since Lucas shows ZERO interest in distributing the originals, you can hardly argue that his ability to make money from them is harmed.

You really have to explain this mythical situation better if you want to be taken seriously since each post is frankly more fantastical then the next. Let me try to get this straight, based on how I understand your posts:


1. Lucas is a monopoly owner of Star Wars and is with holding the originals from being viewed or purchased. This isn't fair since people love these highly regarded original films and they are part of our culture.Or film. Star Wars episode 4 at least. He can revise them as much as he wishes, provided the originals are also available as an option. Just like Steven Spielberg did with Close Encounters.


2. Lucas should lose copyright of the films so they can be shown.


3. No tangible property is taken, and there will be no ability to copy and distribute the works himself if he chooses to is taken.


4. Star Wars some how is still taken from him and distributed to theaters and the home market, despite number 3.


5. No ones intellectual property rights are harmed, because Lucas shouldn't be allowed to control something he created and owns despite creating and owning them because people and history want these films as they originally were.


I'm giving you a huge benefit of the doubt here Robert, this is your argument as I see it. How exactly does the above happen with no government interference (which you say you are against)? The only real world would be someone buying the rights away from Lucas. Good luck on that ever happening.

 

[Greg_S_H]

The good news, Russell, is that this is all just an intellectual exercise. People can write as many letters as they want, the government is not going to open Star Wars up to the public to distribute any way they see fit (not that there wouldn't be those in office who would love such power, unfortunately).

 

[RobertR]

You really have to explain this mythical situation better if you want to be taken seriously since each post is frankly more fantastical then the next. Let me try to get this straight, based on how I understand your posts:

 

1. Lucas is a monopoly owner of Star Wars and is with holding the originals from being viewed or purchased. This isn't fair since people love these highly regarded original films and they are part of our culture.Or film. Star Wars episode 4 at least. He can revise them as much as he wishes, provided the originals are also available as an option. Just like Steven Spielberg did with Close Encounters.

 

2. Lucas should lose copyright of the films so they can be shown.

 

3. No tangible property is taken, and there will be no ability to copy and distribute the works himself if he chooses to is taken.

 

4. Star Wars some how is still taken from him and distributed to theaters and the home market, despite number 3.

 

5. No ones intellectual property rights are harmed, because Lucas shouldn't be allowed to control something he created and owns despite creating and owning them because people and history want these films as they originally were.

 

I'm giving you a huge benefit of the doubt here Robert, this is your argument as I see it. How exactly does the above happen with no government interference (which you say you are against)? The only real world would be someone buying the rights away from Lucas. Good luck on that ever happening.

 

Number 4 is wrong, because Lucas isn't the only possible source for the originals (at least for the first film), therefore, no government (or other) coercion is used. Number 5 is also off base, because I make a distinction between tangible property and intellectual property. Ideas are not scarce goods that one loses the use of when others make use of them. It would be ridiculous, for example, to say that if person A thought up the idea of a tablet computer, that no one could ever make and distribute one without his permission.

 

[TravisR]

The good news, Russell, is that this is all just an intellectual exercise. People can write as many letters as they want, the government is not going to open Star Wars up to the public to distribute any way they see fit (not that there wouldn't be those in office who would love such power, unfortunately).

Exactly. Since we're just discussing rather deciding law, I think it might be a good time for everyone take a moment to breath and relax before the thread gets a temporary lock.

 

[Ruz-El]

Ideas are not scarce goods that one loses the use of when others make use of them. It would be ridiculous, for example, to say that if person A thought up the idea of a tablet computer, that no one could ever make and distribute one without his permission.

Actually they are if someone thinks them up and patents them before other people do... I'm pretty sure that's how it works legally if you try to profit off someones patented thought.


Please explain your distribution of the film then that cuts Lucas out. All our DVDs say they are not to be shown public for profit without the express written consent of the rights holders. I'd presume privately owned prints carry the same terms, otherwise Lucas couldn't block them. I CAN NOT SAY THAT FOR SURE. I don't own any prints, never had to worry about it.

 

[RobertR]

Ideas are not scarce goods that one loses the use of when others make use of them. It would be ridiculous, for example, to say that if person A thought up the idea of a tablet computer, that no one could ever make and distribute one without his permission.

Actually they are if someone thinks them up and patents them before other people do... I'm pretty sure that's how it works legally if you try to profit off someones patented thought.

But it's an artificial scarcity cause by patent law. See this thread for my thoughts on that subject.

Please explain your distribution of the film then that cuts Lucas out. All our DVDs say they are not to be shown public for profit without the express written consent of the rights holders. I'd presume privately owned prints carry the same terms, otherwise Lucas couldn't block them. I CAN NOT SAY THAT FOR SURE. I don't own any prints, never had to worry about it.

All that is based on current law, which I advocate changing. Lucas wouldn't have to be cut out. He could make deals with people, or distribute them himself. Who wouldn't prefer an "official" copy? But his ability to FORCE others not to distribute would be gone.

 

[Greg_S_H]

Apple can't stop someone from producing an iPad knockoff, but it can't use any of Apple's code or proprietary technology. Their tablet can be similar but different. No one is prevented from making their own space opera fairy tale, but it just can't have Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Death Stars and X-Wings. As for there being no harm to Lucasfilm if someone else distributes unaltered versions of the originals since he has no interest in doing so, that is completely false. That assumes that everyone who bought the altered Blu-Rays prefers the changed versions. No, I can guarantee that a percentage of them would prefer the originals, but just bought what was available (they may not know about the fan versions, or may not want to illegally download movies). So, if Sony put out their pristine version of the originals in a legal format, those people would buy the Sony version instead of the Fox version, and Lucas would lose money.

 

[Ricardo C]

But it's an artificial scarcity cause by patent law. See this thread for my thoughts on that subject. All that is based on current law, which I advocate changing. Lucas wouldn't have to be cut out. He could make deals with people, or distribute them himself. Who wouldn't prefer an "official" copy? But his ability to FORCE others not to distribute would be gone.

He wouldn't even have to be cut out, per se. All it would take is a copyright law that allows the public to make use of properties the copyright holder has abandoned. George has said that the originals "don't exist anymore". Now, I have to assume he's speaking figuratively, as it should theoretically be possible to go back to the original elements and re-construct the original films. But figuratively or literally, he's made it clear that those films are no longer part of his plans moving forward. That being the case, there should be no problem with unofficial restorations. Lucas would still own the copyright, and thus wouldn't need to worry about being swamped by competing studios producing knockoffs of his stuff. Meanwhile, those with the resources and/or inclination, can ensure the original, abandoned cuts of the films survive into the future. The same could go for any other piece of art that owners sit on rather than keep alive. Essentially, people like Harmy and Adywan could work in the open, and make their work available to others much more easily. And should a film collector team up with interested parties to create a proper film-based restoration? They'd be doing George's job for him, and everybody wins, including the guy that no longer wants to sell those films to begin with, as an audience that would otherwise have washed its hands clean of the franchise might be interested enough to stick around in the future. Of course, that introduces new challenges, such as what exactly qualifies as "sitting on" the rights to something. The Jodorowski case is clear cut, and in my opinion, so is the Song of the South one. But others might be thornier, as simply having a product be OOP doesn't necessarily mean the rights owner is neglecting it. But given that the trend in copyright law is to extend it ad infinitum, I doubt we'll ever get the chance to come up with solutions to such a problem.

 

[RobertR]

if Sony put out their pristine version of the originals in a legal format, those people would buy the Sony version instead of the Fox version, and Lucas would lose money.

Which Lucas could easily counter by putting out the originals himself. Oh my, competition. What a ghastly thought, eh? You think maybe competition would get us better versions, including fixing the mistakes people complain that Lucas STILL hasn't bothered to fix? And that wouldn't be "forcing" Lucas anymore than those who prefer the originals but "settled" for the Blu Rays were "forced".

 

[Ricardo C]

Apple can't stop someone from producing an iPad knockoff, but it can't use any of Apple's code or proprietary technology. Their tablet can be similar but different. No one is prevented from making their own space opera fairy tale, but it just can't have Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Death Stars and X-Wings. As for there being no harm to Lucasfilm if someone else distributes unaltered versions of the originals since he has no interest in doing so, that is completely false. That assumes that everyone who bought the altered Blu-Rays prefers the changed versions. No, I can guarantee that a percentage of them would prefer the originals, but just bought what was available (they may not know about the fan versions, or may not want to illegally download movies). So, if Sony put out their pristine version of the originals in a legal format, those people would buy the Sony version instead of the Fox version, and Lucas would lose money.

He can't lose money he's not trying to make. Under this hypothetical reformed copyright system, it's no one's fault but his own if he won't supply the market with the product it prefers.

 

[Ricardo C]

Which Lucas could easily counter by putting out the originals himself. Oh my, competition. What a ghastly thought, eh? And that wouldn't be "forcing" Lucas anymore than those who prefer the originals but "settled" for the Blu Rays were "forced".

Not to mention that George would forever have the edge on any potential competitors, as he has sole access to the original elements, props, behind the scenes stuff, and everything else. Hell, the cast might even benefit, as competing studios would try to woo them into exclusive deals to supply commentaries/interviews/etc.

 

[RobertR]

Excellent points, Ricardo.