SADC/DVD-A inferior sounding?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by RichardMA, Jul 2, 2002.

  1. RichardMA

    RichardMA Second Unit

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    Sorry I didn't have room for a better header. What I meant
    to ask was will the "old" analog output players/analog
    input receivers sound inferior to the new digital output
    players now coming on-line? If so, maybe I should wait
    to buy just a digital player and preamp or receiver?
    I'm also wondering if I need a new preamp or will there
    be firewire to spdif digital converters that will allow
    us to use our current digital input receivers/preamps?
     
  2. KeithH

    KeithH Lead Actor

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    Richard, there aren't really any DVD-Audio or SACD players available with a digital output to be worried about right now. Accuphase introduced a two-box SACD system with a proprietary digital connection last year for $30,000. Denon has come up with its own proprietary digital connection between its $3500 DVD-9000 DVD-Audio player and $4300 AVR-5803 A/V receiver. The digital connection can only be used with the '5803. Pioneer has announced that its forthcoming Elite DV-47Ai DVD-Audio/SACD player will offer the option of a proprietary digital link to its forthcoming Elite VSX-49TXi receiver. Like the Denon system, Pioneer's digital interface will only work with the '49TXi receiver. At this point, if there is software in either high-resolution format that interests you, I would not wait for a digital output. I think it will be a while before we see a universal digital output on players and the corresponding universal digital input on pre/pros and receivers. DVD-Audio and SACD players are available for under $200, so I say, jump in!
     
  3. Rachael B

    Rachael B Producer

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    Keith, the Pioneer rep told me that it's stille up in the air on the 47i's digital interface. It may only work with DVD-V..?

    Richard, what good would a digital connection for DVD-A and SACD do? Processors wouldn't process them anyway. Best wishes!
     
  4. KeithH

    KeithH Lead Actor

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    Rachael,

    Thanks for the info. regarding the forthcoming digital interface from Pioneer.


    Richard,

    I forgot to mention in my previous post that a couple people here reported problems with the digital link between the Denon '9000 and '5803 when the components first came out. Apparently, they could not get audio from DVD-Audio discs when using the proprietary interface. As I recall, they could surprisingly get sound at full resolution via the standard digital connections, however.
     
  5. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    RMA- I would think that the proper answer to your question is "no".
    The reason why is that you have the same choice currently with CD players. The DACs in some players are better than the DACs in the pre/pro or receiver that it's hooked up, as well as vice versa.
    So, it has always been up to everyone here to either run digitally between a CD player (or a DVD player playing a CD) vs running analog.
    Of course, if you use the DACs in the player and send the analog signal to the receiver/pre/pro, it *would* make sense to use an analog/direct/bypass mode on the receiving unit to bypass all digital processing there.
    A different answer is this: in a few months I plan on pulling the trigger on an Outlaw 950/Pioneer DV-47A, 47AI, or 45. I won't wait because it could be a year or more until a *bug-free* digital connection exists in *reasonably* priced components. Plus, will that digital connection be valid for DVD-A *and* SACD? I think that I've heard that it's only for DVD-A anyway... [​IMG]
     
  6. KeithH

    KeithH Lead Actor

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    Kevin asked:
     
  7. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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    If the industry will work out a universal digital connection for both or at at least for each of it's own, then the answer is Yes.
    That would eliminate many of the current bugs like BM and time allignment problems, which must be done to achive satisfactory surround reproduction[if one has all speakers placed equidistant,then time allignment not an issue],and usually is not done or on current pre/pros or receivers,or done incomplete.[The Denon 9000/3800 DVD-A players do these "requiremnts" well].
    Also with the digital connection you would cut down on the numbers of cables currently one needs to enjoy these formats.
    The current "bandaid" type connections[Denon Pioneer],is handicapped by the copyprotected materials,which is the majority of the current DVD-A titles.
     
  8. Philip Hamm

    Philip Hamm Lead Actor

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    Why bother worrying about this? Oh yeah because a digital connection must be "better" for some magical reason. [​IMG]
     
  9. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Philip,
    So then you have yet another device to configure and calibrate. The digital solution is best because you don't have to duplicate DSP horsepower. With a digital standard, DVD-A (and SACD) would become "Just another digital source" (c). Not to manage reducing the cable clutter substantially.
    Consider the person that has only 5.1 bypass input (that would be just about everyone that has a 5.1 bypass input). Let's say they have a multi-channel SACD player, and a DVD-Audio player. Further, let's assume that they use an ICBM for bass management of SACD and DVD-A because it provides superior flexibility that both the units lack for bass management.
    So, to cable this up, we're talking about:
    3 prs of interconnects from SACD to switchbox.
    3 prs of interconnects from DVD-A to switchbox.
    3 prs of interconnects from switchbox to ICBM.
    3 prs of interconnects from ICBM to 5.1 input.
    That's a lot of cables. That's how I have everything hooked up presently.
    Buy the Sony TA-P9000ES analog 5.1 preamp and you save no cables. Still 12 pairs.
    3 pr SACD to TA-P9000ES, 3 pr DVD-A to TA-P9000ES, 3 pr TA-P9000ES, 3pr ICBM to 5.1 input.
    Now, what if bass management on the DVD-A/SACD player is not optimal choosing 100Hz for the crossover, instead of 80Hz which works better in more cases.
    What if the time alignment options aren't able to match up with your actual environment.
    Something to think about.
    Regards,
     
  10. GordonL

    GordonL Supporting Actor

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    I'm wondering why Sony, one of the pioneers of IEEE-1394, doesn't already have equipment using it. They (and Philips) have the resources to make it happen and if they start doing it, everyone else will also. So whats the hold-up?
     
  11. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Gordon,
    Well for DSD, the tools for consumer pieces aren't in place anyway to handle the DSD bitstream.
    While many of the DACs are capable of decoding the DSD bitstream itself, Bass Management and Time Alignment tools are nonexistent for consumer gear. Of course they could do an on the fly convert from DSD to PCM, apply standardized algorithms for these two functions, then go back to DSD for the decode, but no one would actually do this, would they?
    Speculation mode on
    As for why the digital interface still isn't in place, for a straight decode, I suspect that they are worried about copy protection, and haven't completed specs on encryption.
    Speculations mode off
    Regards,
     
  12. Dan Hitchman

    Dan Hitchman Cinematographer

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    However, on these processors and receivers with the DSD decoding and DACs onboard, will DSD stay DSD or will there be some unwanted conversions along the way?

    That I would not like to see happen.

    Dan
     
  13. Frank_S

    Frank_S Supporting Actor

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    It's all about copy protection and I'm not buying into SACD or DVD-Audio until the mess is all straightened out. No doubt when there is a Digital interface we won't be able to copy either format anyway. Bass management and time alignment are very important issues and I don't think most people are going to buy an ICBM to solve this issue, not to mention cables up the ying yang.
    Audiophiles may find it worth the hassle but if either format is to succeed, the masses will have to step up to the plate, the same people who don't even understand widescreen, try to explain to them that they need an external device for bass management and 6 pairs of cables, that ought to go over real well. [​IMG]
     
  14. KeithH

    KeithH Lead Actor

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    Frank, those same people who don't know what widescreen is probably don't know what bass management or time alignment is either. So, they would run six cables from their SACD or DVD-Audio player to their receiver and be done with it. I'm sure a lot of folks are doing it right now with no clue about bass management or time alignment. Then again, the majority of people still don't have surround-sound set-ups anyway.
     
  15. RichardMA

    RichardMA Second Unit

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  16. RichardMA

    RichardMA Second Unit

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  17. Nathan_W

    Nathan_W Stunt Coordinator

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