SACD player, Opinion? (1 Viewer)

[brian a]

Why are there no detailed discussions of the DACS in these units like there is for processors? Everyone is using them for SACD, but I haven't heard them mentioned by specs, not have I heard them pointed out as a difference between the various players.

 

[KeithH]

Brian, Ric Schultz, who is well known for modifying the innards of components (capacitors and the like), posted on Audio Asylum awhile back that the 'CE775 and 'C222ES use three Burr-Brown DSD 1702 DACs, while the 'C555ES uses three Burr-Brown PCM 1738 DACs. Both DACs do pure DSD conversion (no conversion of DSD to PCM). Ric stated that the PCM 1738 DAC has better specs. and is the better DAC. Ric also stated that the 'C555ES shows better overall build quality inside than does the 'CE775 and 'C222ES. Apparently, the 'C555ES has larger capacitors, a better transport, and separate power supplies for the analog and digital sections. The 'CE775 and 'C222ES have just one power supply. As I recall, Ric also said that the 'CE775 and 'C222ES are very similar on the inside. The 'C222ES has a larger power supply, but otherwise, they are quite similar. Of course, the 'C222ES has a more robust chassis. Search for Ric Schultz's posts on the Hi-Rez Highway board on www.audioasylum.com .

 

[Chip E]

Eujin,

That's an incredible price from Vann's... i bought my Sony 9K from them over a year ago and was happy with their service. They are an authorized ES dealer too. If they are selling the 775 for that, J&R will match it. J&R is closer for shipping as Vann's is in Montana...not too big a deal though.

 

[TanD]

I got a catalog from my local dealer, on the 222ES it has dual power supply on this player one for analog, and one for digital.

KeithH

could do compare the 555ES and the 775 on SACD performance, I really appreciated.

I will make my decision when i find out, I am thinking for a peace of mind I may get the 555ES to match the level of my component.

 

[brian a]

Thanks for the details, Keith.

 

[David Judah]

Keith,

I read that post by Ric awhile back on Audio Asylum. I didn't think much of it until I looked at the units myself.

The interesting thing is Sony doesn't farm out for the chips on those units. They design them and call them SA DA(for Super Audio DA). It contains a DSD filter, the PCM filter, and the DAC all on one IC. The CD portion is run through a 8X digital filter, then to a noise shaper and then to the Multi-level DA converter. They are all the same on the CE-775, 222ES & 555ES for Redbook playback.

The SACD portion of the IC is tweaked a bit on the 555 & 777, which according to Sony results in less Harmonic distortion(.0003% difference measured--but I'm in the 'measurments don't tell it all' camp).

Also, the transport on the 222 is not the same as the CE775. It's not as good as the 555, but it is no where nearly as flimsy as the 775. I don't know why he would suggest they are the same. By popping the top off of both it is clear they are not.

The 222 does have two power supplies like the 555ES, but one of them is smaller. The CE775 has one smaller power supply.

The analog output section and the frame plate construction are the big differences between the 222 and the 555. It is possible that because of this, CD playback could be better with the 555, but I did not notice it in my listening tests, but I am only one person with an opinion--everyone should decide for themselves.

I found it very curious that Ric thought there were only minor differences between the 222ES and the CE775, because it is obvious to anyone who looks that they are quite different. I actually found the build quality to be more similiar between the CE775 and the 70ES CD player than the 775 and the 222. I don't know Ric, but maybe he was posting from memory after only a cursory glance.

Anyways, I always say use specs as a guide, but trust your ears above all.

DJ

 

[KeithH]

David,

Excellent post. I have not popped the top on the 'CE775, 'C222ES, and 'C555ES. Given Ric's reputation, I accepted his word at face value. Anyway, maybe he didn't say that the transports on the 'CE775 and 'C222ES, but I do recall him saying that the transport on the 'C555ES was definitely the best of the three. I also recall him saying that the 'CE775 and 'C222ES each have one power supply, while the 'C555ES has two. According to Crutchfield regarding the 'C222ES:

dual R-core power transformers

Also, I have read in several places that Sony is using Burr-Brown DACs in its multi-channel SACD players (PCM 1738 and DSD 1702). Sony used to use its own Current Pulse DACs in its ES CD and SACD players, but now they are using Burr-Brown DACs.

By the way, I do recall Ric stating the analog output stage on the 'C555ES was superior to that of the 'CE775 and 'C222ES, which doesn't surprise me. Regardless of the exact differences between the players, I feel this is a situation where you get what you pay for. The 'C555ES is a wonderful player in every respect for $800.

 

[David Judah]

I agree. The 555 is clearly superior in the transport and the output stage. If someone has the extra money to spend then it is definitely the way to go--just to have all of the bases covered.

That's interesting about the DACs. There was nothing to indicate they were Burr-Brown. In fact they were clearly stamped with Sony the DSD logo and there own model #. In addition, as an ES dealer we have material from Sony stating that they make their own chips for those models and the PCM stage is identical. Maybe TI builds them and Sony programs them and stamps their name on them. I can check with our rep., but it usually takes a long time to get a response from someone in the engineering dept.

About the tranformers there is an R-core transformer and an El-core transformer on the 222. The 555 has two R-Core's.

Anyways, they are excellent machines for the money and with prices coming down, hopefully more people will be exposed to SACD.

DJ

 

[rodneyH]

nice work David. I think what it comes down to is that the 222 is much closer to the 555, than the non-ES (775 ?) is to the 222, but certainly with that nice of gear, why get a 222, when the 555 is only about $300 more???

 

[Doug_B]

Hmmm, for < $200, the 775 is tempting me to try out SACD earlier than expected. IMO, the warranty difference relative to the ES models is irrelevant with this price; if it breaks down in 1+ years, I can probably spend another $200 on a unit that might be as good as a 222ES is today (and maybe with digital output by then).

My question is whether or not the 775 produces excellent SACD sound on a revealing system or if the 775 would be the weak link in such a system (I have Soundline ribbon speakers, Odyssey amp). I would not need it for redbook, as I can continue to use my Ah! 4000.

Doug

 

[Rachael B]

One advantage I see to my 555 and likely for the 222 is, if I have a mixed tray of SACD's and CD's and I push Shuffle (all discs), this player sounds good pumping both out of it's analog output. Having had a cheap Sony 5 disc changer and MD's 510 & 520, these players don't sound good unless you use the optical out to other DAC's. I'd hate to have to switch outputs for the two formats. I bought a 5 disc changer to load up and press shuffle, mostly. It's gonna be a long time before I'm playing mostly SACD's, if ever...? How long will this format last? I'll have to call Miss Cleo about that!

I have to admit I haven't even bothered to try the digital outputs for CD. The 555's analog output suffices. It seems like CD's sound a bit louder than SACD's at a given volume level, generally, or so far...

 

[JackS]

Heres the best price I've seen so far. The SCD-555 for $747 at Home Theater Advantage. Also the SCD-777 below $1800. No experience with this retailer so check it out before you purchase.

 

[KeithH]

Doug, I am quite pleased with the sound of SACDs on the 'CE775, especially considering the $200 price tag. I have not yet had the chance to compare it to my 'C333ES and 'C555ES, the latter of which is in an different system. I would at least like to compare it to the 'C333ES since the two players are in the same system.

I'd say try the 'CE775 for $200. You have nothing to lose. J&R Music World and Crutchfield will take it back after 30 days if you don't like it. You could always try the 'C222ES or 'C555ES in that case. That said, if you can spend $800, the 'C555ES is a wonderful CD and SACD player, and build quality is very good. For $200, you don't get great build quality with the 'CE775. By the way, I haven't tried a CD on the 'CE775 yet. I've heard CDs on it in stores and have not been impressed, but I will try it as a CD player at some point. I expect my 'C333ES and Pioneer Elite PD-65 to be significantly better.

 

[ReggieW]

Keith,

I have decided to wait for the Sony DVP-S755V ($300.00 msrp) to arrive (heck, might as well) in June instead of picking up the Sony DVP-500 now, and would like to have some specs on it if possible. I think it will have bass management for SACD, and have MP3 compatibility as well as progressive scan capability. I've heard many people have been impressed with the playback in the DVP-500, and think the 755 will be even better. I figure J&R will have it for $250.00 come June. As stated earlier, I will need to utilize the video capability on the 755 from time to time, as my JVC 721bk is glitchy with several of my titles. Thus, I'll have DVD-A & SACD as well as two DVD video players. As much as I would've loved to have picked up one of the ES SACD units, they are simply out of my price range, and even if I had opted for one, I still would've required an extra DVD-video player to assist the JVC.

Reg

 

[KeithH]

Reggie, your decision to wait for the 'NS755V seems wise. You will probably be able to pick it up for around the same price as the 'NS500V sells for now, which is great considering the 'NS755V will provide progressive-scan video output and, I believe, playback of MP3-encoded CDs. As for bass management, I am sure the 'NS755V will offer something in that area since all of Sony's multi-channel SACD players thus far do. However, it remains to be seen how extensive bass management will be on the 'NS755V and other players forthcoming. For example, it would be nice to see Sony incorporate an adjustable crossover or at least one that is fixed at a more reasonable frequency than 120 Hz.

 

[TanD]

I finally ordered the SCD-C555ES from J&R, It will be here today.

any suggestion of good SACD to start? from bestbuy or C.C.

anywhere on the web?

thanks

 

[KeithH]

Tan, congratulations on your purchase. I think you will be quite pleased with the 'C555ES. Excellent choice. Best Buy and Circuit City sell SACDs. The vast majority of the titles they carry are from Sony Music. Web resources include:
www.amusicdirect.com
www.elusivedisc.com
www.acousticsounds.com
www.towerrecords.com
www.superaudio-cd.com
www.chesky.com
There is a Virgin Megastore in Miami right near the University of Miami, as you may know. They sell SACDs. Also, check out Tower Records if you have one in your area. I imagine there is at least one store in the Miami area.
If you are looking for suggestions for specific titles, let us know your interests (genres).

 

[TanD]

Any good tile in Pop and country and easy listening? any music like those performed by Kenny G.

 

[KeithH]

Tan, Kenny G is not out on SACD, but there is a John Denver live stereo SACD out. I don't have it, so I can't comment on the sound quality, but you might want to check it out. I often see it at Best Buy. You might also like the new Mary Chapin Carpenter time*sex*love* stereo/multi-channel SACD. I picked it up at Circuit City last weekend, and it is excellent. I am not a fan of country music, but this disc is not really country. It's just good, mellow music. Also check out Carole King Tapestry, which was released last week as a multi-channel SACD. Like all multi-channel SACDs, it also has a stereo track. I have the original stereo SACD, and it is very good. Tapestry is an older recording, so it is not the best-sounding SACD out there, but it is decidedly better than the CD versions I have. Best Buy has the stereo SACD, but Circuit City has the new multi-channel version.

Another disc I recommend is James Taylor Hourglass, which is another multi-channel title. I would characterize the music as mellow, and the recording is first-rate. Highly recommended. If you pick up this disc, which is usually available at Best Buy and Circuit City, listen to track 4, "Gaia". It is wonderful on SACD. A final suggestion I have is Celine Dion All the Way: A Decade of Song, which was released as a multi-channel SACD a few months ago. I've seen it at Best Buy and Circuit City. I have the original stereo SACD, and it sounds phenomenal. On "My Heart Will Go On", Celine is in the room. I know that sounds trite, but it is an amazing experience.

 

[TanD]

Thanks Keith for your suggestion.

I will definitely get those you recommend to get started, especially "Celine Dion all the way: A decade of song", it has some of my favorite song and perform by my favorite artist. Can't wait to listen to it.