SACD and DVD-A BM and TA issues

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Dennis B, May 8, 2002.

  1. Dennis B

    Dennis B Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd like to make sure I understand the current issues with DVD-A and SACD concerning bass management and time alignment.

    As far as I know, very few (if any) SACD or DVD-A players offer decent bass management and none offers time alignment. Is this statement correct?

    The easy way around bass management is the ICBM-1, no big deal. But what about time alignment?

    I'm looking right now at the Marantz DV-8300 combo for $2k with some BM, but it'd be ok by me to pay $1k each or even a bit higher on separate DVD-A/SACD players if I could get any with BM and TA. Any such beast?

    Alternatively, are there any pre/pros out there (regardless of price for now) that offer bass management and/or time alignment on the 5.1 analog inputs?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Jeff Keene

    Jeff Keene Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    May 18, 2000
    Messages:
    514
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Anthem AVM-20 (about $2900) has full bass management on its 5.1 inputs. In order to do so, it digitizes the incoming signal in order to do the processing. I'm not sure if it does time alignment or not. I'm assuming it does.

    The digitizing and analogizing (sorry, it's late) is, for some, a big no no. But the Anthem still sounds awfully nice to me with the digitizing engaged, so I definitely recommend an audition. Hope this helps.
     
  3. Craig F

    Craig F Second Unit

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Craig
    The new Denon DVD-3800 and DVD-9000 have TA 0-15ms. BM 80Hz fixed.
     
  4. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,394
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Lee
    Dennis,
    Can you clarify what you mean by time alignment?
    I'm not sure this would be specific to a sampling format like SACD or DVDA.
    In my mind, the only time element is jitter produced by time distortion in the sampling data stream. In this case, proper implementation highly limits jitter. We have looked at this in the studio on Super Audio and it can be very low, if not inaudible with decent gear and cables.
    I wonder if you mean time alignment among 5.1 channel sound, then that is really a receiver/decoder issue, not something inherent in the recording format.
    Let us know...[​IMG]
    Lee
     
  5. Craig F

    Craig F Second Unit

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Craig
    Lee,

    Time Alignment allows one to compensate for speakers that are not all equidistant from the listening position. Yes, this is usually handled by the receiver or pre/pro but it needs to be done in the digital domain.
     
  6. Dennis B

    Dennis B Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    0
    Craig,
    Thanks, that's exactly what I meant. [​IMG]
    Hmm.. that Denon 3800 is looking good... but does it have the chroma bug like the 2800?
    So Jeff how do you like the AVM-20 overall?
    Thanks.
     
  7. Marc_E

    Marc_E Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2001
    Messages:
    769
    Likes Received:
    0
    Croma bug-yes!

    I opted for the 1600 myself and love it. The BM is ok for now. If not happy, get an ICBM.

    Marc
     
  8. Dennis B

    Dennis B Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah, I found out on the AVS forum that the 3800 is reported to have the chroma bug... [​IMG]
    It's really unbelievable that new gear keeps coming out with the bug. [​IMG]
     
  9. KeithH

    KeithH Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2000
    Messages:
    9,413
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dennis, this is because Denon is being irresponsible. Someone in that organization needs to put his or her foot down to prevent the release of products that look great on paper and fail to deliver. Unfortunately, Denon keeps promising a lot, but can't get past the promises. The '3800 looks like a great product. If Denon comes up with a fix for it to remove the chroma bug, then I might grab one.
     
  10. Dennis B

    Dennis B Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    0
    so does the XA777ES offer TA? I understand it offers basic BM, but it's TA that I'm worried about, since BM can be overcome with an ICBM-1.
     
  11. Dennis B

    Dennis B Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is there any indication that manufacturers will end up using digital connexions between SACD and DVD-A players to overcome this BM/TA limitation more easily?
     
  12. Westly T

    Westly T Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the problem with TA is most of the components for doing this are not available for 192Khz 24 bit or the DSD SACD format. Second, one really doesn't want to convert the analog signal from a player back to digital to process, and then back to analog again! Even if a product was available at the high resolution of these new formats.

    I think you'll likely have to wait for these features to either be incorporated into the player, or for a player with a digital connection to a receiver-processor that has these features for the high resolution formats. It’s probably best to move your chair to the proper position from the speakers and use an ICBM, or just live without proper TA, if you must have it now.
     
  13. Westly T

    Westly T Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    0
    Another problem I see is that one format is PCM and the other is DSD. What do you think the chances are that the processors will have support for both formats through a digital connection?
     
  14. Jeff Keene

    Jeff Keene Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    May 18, 2000
    Messages:
    514
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  15. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    2,635
    Likes Received:
    0
    Westly,

    Transferring the data in either case, isn't that tough. The tricky part is that DSP is well defined, and readily available for PCM.

    DSD doesn't have the DSP infrastructure available.

    In terms of Bass Management, there are less operations for a DSP to handle with stereo 24/192K than there are for 5.1 24/96K.

    24/192K: High and Low Pass Filter x 2, sum low-pass filters

    24/96K: High and Low Pass Filter x 5, sum 5x low-pass filters and LFE.

    Regards,
     
  16. Joe Casey

    Joe Casey Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 1999
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wouldn't hold my breath on the TA issue. Plus, whether it be SACD or DVDA, just how many worthwhile m-ch discs are there out there now? Can I count them with one hand still? [​IMG]
    Seriously though, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Lot more selection if you foregt m-ch for now.
     
  17. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2000
    Messages:
    2,635
    Likes Received:
    0
    To clarify my earlier point WRT digital transmission, I am referring to the technical ability to transfer the data, not about the clearance from content providers to transfer digitally.

    Regards,
     

Share This Page