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SACD and DVD-A BM and TA issues (1 Viewer)

Dennis B

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I'd like to make sure I understand the current issues with DVD-A and SACD concerning bass management and time alignment.

As far as I know, very few (if any) SACD or DVD-A players offer decent bass management and none offers time alignment. Is this statement correct?

The easy way around bass management is the ICBM-1, no big deal. But what about time alignment?

I'm looking right now at the Marantz DV-8300 combo for $2k with some BM, but it'd be ok by me to pay $1k each or even a bit higher on separate DVD-A/SACD players if I could get any with BM and TA. Any such beast?

Alternatively, are there any pre/pros out there (regardless of price for now) that offer bass management and/or time alignment on the 5.1 analog inputs?

Thanks!
 

Jeff Keene

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The Anthem AVM-20 (about $2900) has full bass management on its 5.1 inputs. In order to do so, it digitizes the incoming signal in order to do the processing. I'm not sure if it does time alignment or not. I'm assuming it does.

The digitizing and analogizing (sorry, it's late) is, for some, a big no no. But the Anthem still sounds awfully nice to me with the digitizing engaged, so I definitely recommend an audition. Hope this helps.
 

Craig F

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The new Denon DVD-3800 and DVD-9000 have TA 0-15ms. BM 80Hz fixed.
 

Lee Scoggins

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Dennis,
Can you clarify what you mean by time alignment?
I'm not sure this would be specific to a sampling format like SACD or DVDA.
In my mind, the only time element is jitter produced by time distortion in the sampling data stream. In this case, proper implementation highly limits jitter. We have looked at this in the studio on Super Audio and it can be very low, if not inaudible with decent gear and cables.
I wonder if you mean time alignment among 5.1 channel sound, then that is really a receiver/decoder issue, not something inherent in the recording format.
Let us know...:)
Lee
 

Craig F

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Lee,

Time Alignment allows one to compensate for speakers that are not all equidistant from the listening position. Yes, this is usually handled by the receiver or pre/pro but it needs to be done in the digital domain.
 

Dennis B

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Craig,
Thanks, that's exactly what I meant. :D
Hmm.. that Denon 3800 is looking good... but does it have the chroma bug like the 2800?
So Jeff how do you like the AVM-20 overall?
Thanks.
 

Marc_E

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Croma bug-yes!

I opted for the 1600 myself and love it. The BM is ok for now. If not happy, get an ICBM.

Marc
 

Dennis B

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Yeah, I found out on the AVS forum that the 3800 is reported to have the chroma bug... :frowning:
It's really unbelievable that new gear keeps coming out with the bug. :angry:
 

KeithH

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Dennis, this is because Denon is being irresponsible. Someone in that organization needs to put his or her foot down to prevent the release of products that look great on paper and fail to deliver. Unfortunately, Denon keeps promising a lot, but can't get past the promises. The '3800 looks like a great product. If Denon comes up with a fix for it to remove the chroma bug, then I might grab one.
 

Dennis B

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so does the XA777ES offer TA? I understand it offers basic BM, but it's TA that I'm worried about, since BM can be overcome with an ICBM-1.
 

Dennis B

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Is there any indication that manufacturers will end up using digital connexions between SACD and DVD-A players to overcome this BM/TA limitation more easily?
 

Westly T

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I think the problem with TA is most of the components for doing this are not available for 192Khz 24 bit or the DSD SACD format. Second, one really doesn't want to convert the analog signal from a player back to digital to process, and then back to analog again! Even if a product was available at the high resolution of these new formats.

I think you'll likely have to wait for these features to either be incorporated into the player, or for a player with a digital connection to a receiver-processor that has these features for the high resolution formats. It’s probably best to move your chair to the proper position from the speakers and use an ICBM, or just live without proper TA, if you must have it now.
 

Westly T

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Another problem I see is that one format is PCM and the other is DSD. What do you think the chances are that the processors will have support for both formats through a digital connection?
 

Jeff Keene

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So Jeff how do you like the AVM-20 overall?
I personally love the Anthem. I am listening to it very critically (I only have 7 risk-free days to take it back). It ain't going back.

The only high-resolution disc that I am able to play at the moment is the John Lee Hooker - Mr. Lucky DAD. This leaves my player (Toshiba 6200) as 96/24 analog. It is running into my 6.1 inputs, is digitized, bass managed, time-aligned (though my fronts are both 8 ft away so that's moot) re-analogged, and plays so sweet I can't stand it. This disc came this morning and I've listened to it three and a half times already.

On paper and in theory indeed the D/A/D/A conversions could and possibly do affect the sound. But saying that this affect outweighs the benefit of high resolution sound properly bass-managed and time-aligned would make me very skeptical.

Do I think that the ideal is a quality combo player that bass-manages every format perfectly, allowing me to plug directly into the Anthem bypassing the DSP? Sure. But it's going to be a while, and in the meantime I'm listening to music.

I really wish Outlaw would release a combo 5.1 switch / ICBM. I'm also looking at the Sony 5.1 pre-amp. But I'm expecting to love the Anthem for what it does right now.

The cool thing about the Anthem is that I have choices now and in the future. I fully expect that eventually the act will be together and I'll be able to buy a mid to high end universal transport that digitally outputs all formats. When that day comes, I hope to find an easy upgrade for the Anthem letting me input all these bitstreams for perfect processing. Again, in the meantime the thing just sounds very very nice.

Hope this helps!
 

John Kotches

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Westly,

Transferring the data in either case, isn't that tough. The tricky part is that DSP is well defined, and readily available for PCM.

DSD doesn't have the DSP infrastructure available.

In terms of Bass Management, there are less operations for a DSP to handle with stereo 24/192K than there are for 5.1 24/96K.

24/192K: High and Low Pass Filter x 2, sum low-pass filters

24/96K: High and Low Pass Filter x 5, sum 5x low-pass filters and LFE.

Regards,
 

Joe Casey

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I wouldn't hold my breath on the TA issue. Plus, whether it be SACD or DVDA, just how many worthwhile m-ch discs are there out there now? Can I count them with one hand still? ;)
Seriously though, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Lot more selection if you foregt m-ch for now.
 

John Kotches

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To clarify my earlier point WRT digital transmission, I am referring to the technical ability to transfer the data, not about the clearance from content providers to transfer digitally.

Regards,
 

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