RPTV Questions (1 Viewer)

[Vic_P]

First let me say that I really appreciate the help.

At this point I'm leaning toward the Toshiba 16:9 and stretching regular TV. I probably won't even notice it being stretched. The only way I really noticed in the store is when 2 TV's were side by side - one stretched and one not. That won't be the situation in my house.

So, assuming I get the Toshiba 16:9, is it best to have the DVD player add the black bars or is best to have the TV add the black bars. In other words, does the DVD tell the TV NOT to send picture or does it still send picture, but just sends black?

I have a progressive scan Toshiba DVD player.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Chuck,
I think your last question clears it up although there are a few details to touch on.
For a widescreen TV, where usually you get grey bars, many people find grey bars annoying, including me. I have no problems w/ black bars, it's the bright grey ones that's annoying, especially in low lighting. Because of this, people who want an OAR picture might prefer a video source device, eg. DVD player, that have different modes to put black bars where the TV would've put grey bars. I guess the defacto standard term is "aspect adjustment". AFAIK, there are few DVD players that can do this w/out significant quality loss. When you do this, it will also free you from doing any mode switching on the TV side.
For example, you won't need to treat non-16x9 DVDs differently from 16x9 DVDs on the TV side when the player handles it.
Now, aside from the grey bar issue, if you don't do "aspect adjustment" on the DVD player side, non-16x9 movies will need to be zoomed/scaled on the TV side so they fill the width of the screen. Otherwise, you end up w/ a window-boxed image, ie. letterboxed image w/in 4x3 space w/ bars on the sides(!). Some TVs can do this automatically, but many might require a manual mode switch. But in all cases, you'll lose quality more than if done by the DVD player.
Also, and even more seriously, some older widescreen sets like last year's Panny's lock into FULL mode when fed a 480p signal, so that was a problem for viewing non-16x9 DVDs. In that case, you really need a DVD player that can do the "aspect adjustment" to similate a 16x9 image. Do not that this is only an issue w/ 480p signals, not 480i.
Patrick, if you're reading this, that was one of my concerns w/ the unofficial 16x9 squeeze mode on that 56" 4x3 Panny. IIRC, I think nobody addressed that concern.
FYI, this issue w/ locking into FULL mode is not limited to DVDs, but can be true even w/ EDTV sources via a STB. Some enhanced definition channels will give you a 480p picture that cause similar problems. In that case, this factors into your choice of STB--not sure if all new ones resolve this problem better.
The moral of this story is to avoid 16x9 sets that lock into FULL mode on 480p signals--and generally just avoid any device that lock into any mode w/out manual override whenever feasible. I'm not sure, but probably none of this year's models from the major makers have this problem.
And finally, depending on what combo you do, you'll get somewhat variable image quality kind of like the stretch mode thing and the cable/sat quality thing although not so serious. Even if your TV doesn't lock into FULL mode, your best bet is to simply get a DVD player (or STB or whatever else) that does all the adjustments in the digital domain before any D-to-A conversion. This might be why some people go as far as to use an HTPC amongst other reasons.
Btw, if you get a 4x3 set w/ 16x9 squeeze, you won't need the kind of features I just mentioned. You'll always run your DVD in wide mode and do what Jan said.
Whew!! Let me know if I missed anything else because I have feeling I just might've.
Hope this helps more than it confused (or worried) you...
_Man_

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Vic,
I'm not sure about all progressive scan Toshiba players, but from what I read, it sounds like the most recent ones can do "aspect adjustment"--might be called something else by Toshiba. It sounded like you'd just use one of the ZOOM modes specifically for this on the SD3800 and SD4800.
The SD3800 is one of 2 players I'm considering besides the Panny RP82/CP72, which seem like the best quality players in their range but don't offer this feature and would force me to live w/ grey bars on 4x3 content and TV zoom mode on non-16x9 letterboxed content. My other choice is the JVC SA75 from last year, which offers this capability but has its own share of flaws, BUT can be had for just $125. At that price, I'm more willing to upgrade sooner than later when something "perfect" comes along probably next year.
Anyway, if you want to follow/discuss this capability/issue (along w/ what I mentioned earlier), try wading through this thread, which talks about it on and off:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=107485
_Man_

 

[Patrick Sun]

I read the "FULL MODE" description, but I still don't understand what's going on with "FULL MODE" when 480p material is sent to the set. What is "locked"?

The 4:3 Panny only does 16x9 squeeze on 1080i material (and that's an option, you can leave it in 4:3 mode with 1080i). It doesn't even have an option to go between 4:3 or 16x9 with other resolution material, it only shows 4:3 as the only option in the advanced settings.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

I thought Michael_TLV said that you can do 16x9 squeeze on 480i/p material via the service menu. That's why I even bothered to consider it.

My concern was that since that 4x3 Panny is last year's model and is basically the 53"(?) 16x9 Panny "trapped" in a 4x3 body, it might also have the "locked in full mode" problem of those 16x9 Panny's. Normally, I might say who cares if I can use it as a 16x9 for that price, but then, I'd probably be missing certain 16x9 features AND almost certainly void any warranties running it that way. There's probably no hiding the fact that you've been in the service menu after say 6 months of running it at 16x9.

Anyhoo, the "locked in full mode" problem (only on 480p signals) means non-16x9 letterboxed images cannot be zoomed to fill the width of the screen. In that case, you need the source device to do scaling for you. At least that's the description I keep reading about.

_Man_

 

[Patrick Sun]

Ah...okay. I guess that scenario wouldn't really affect my viewing habits. I have a Panny RP-91 (does scaling for 4:3 material IIRC in 480p, I'll find out what it does with non-16x9 LBX DVDs in 480p one of these days), and I have a JVC XV-S65GD that has some zooming features to it, plus it's my multi-region PAL/NTSC player as well. Also, the number of non-16x9 LBX films is getting less and less in my collection as I upgrade previous editions afflicted with such a technical deficiency in its initial DVD incarnation.

The thing about converting the 4:3 into a 16x9 is the convergence quality hit you take (if you wanted to go back and forth). If you did it right, you'd never go back to 4:3 mode unless you re-converged everything to look right in 4:3 mode (basically putting the vertical height back to factory specs). That was the rub. But a rub that I personally could live with given the other trade-offs.

BTW, I will probably rely on upconverting 480i to 1080i for DVDs (slapped into 16x9 mode will give me a quality boost in DVD viewing) when I get a HDTV OTA receiver (I'm leaning heavily towards the Samsung SIR-T165 for this feature).

 

[Patrick Sun]

BTW, I treat zoom modes on TVs like I treat DSP modes on receivers (you know, the "Jazz/Stadium/Big Hall/etc" sound fields settings): I never use them. I prefer the music clean, and the TV material in its intended OAR.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Ah! Yes, from what I hear, the Panny RP91 does exactly the trick although I don't really want to spend that much and still have the chroma bug. I believe the JVC also does the trick automatically, but only on properly flagged DVDs, eg. Titanic is a problem. When not properly flagged, you can still override manually, but it requires a slightly annoying workaround.
Strangely, upon first view, the specs and even the remote for the Panny RP82/CP72's seem to imply the same scaling feature, but apparently does absolutely nothing. My guess is that they originally thought they'd be using a Faroudja chip that can do the scaling, but found out too late to change the remote (and maybe the menu options). The new generation Faroudja chips will have the scaling capability, so maybe the next generation of Panny's will do it amongst other brands.
Ok. I just did a doublecheck. The "locked in full mode" problem actually means the TV assumes all 480p signals are 16x9 and will do the stretch normally needed for 16x9 images. So on last year's 16x9 Panny's (and certain other TVs from other makers), this will give you the effect of a stretch mode image w/ all non-16x9 wide and regular 4x3 content in 480p. That makes more sense to me now given the solutions people use.
It's funny how Panasonic describes the scaling feature on the RP91 as:
"4:3 Shrink Function w/ Letterbox Zoom & Shift lets you watch DVD movie discs in their original aspect ratio on a 16:9 wide screen to preserve the high picture quality of progressive output."
Wow! They make this sound like a fancy feature to enhance your experience, but it really makes you wonder if they didn't make their 16x9 TVs last year so as to leverage their own players. Call me the cynic, but I'm a computer programmer...
It sounds funny now, but I'm sure most 16x9 Panny owners from last year didn't find it funny at all...
_Man_

 

[Jan Strnad]

ChuckDeLa,
It'd be nice if we could zero in on your question. The info you get from most sales clerks will probably be wrong, and at least here there's always somebody who'll leap in and correct us when we make mistakes.
If it seems that widescreen users have to fiddle around more, it's because of the difference between "enhanced for 16:9 TV" DVDs and "non-enhanced" or letterboxed. With a 4:3 TV, either type of widescreen DVD will come out looking the same: black bars top and bottom, with some loss of sharpness (compared with a widescreen set). With a 16:9 TV, "enhanced" come out better and fill the screen as much as possible, and "letterboxed" come out with bars top and bottom and on both sides.
Obviously, if you have a widescreen TV, you want "enhanced" DVDs. Most of them are, these days, but there are older titles and some current anachronisms that aren't enhanced.
Some 4:3 sets can take enhanced widescreen DVDs and get more sharpness out of them by squeezing the picture into the center of the screen. They can't do this with non-enhanced DVDs.
Are we getting any closer to enlightenment?
Jan

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Well, regarding the zoom mode, I'd agree except when you've got a 16x9 TV, you either have to get a player w/ the scaling function OR be forced to zoom in order to get a good size image for non-16x9 wide images. Depending on the zoom ratio, it doesn't necessarily destroy OAR for letterboxed images, but it doesn't look very good either.
As for me, I've got too many letterboxed DVDs to avoid this problem, and many of them might never have 16x9 versions--at least "never" in terms of the useful life of my new RPTV. The worst thing is many of these are rather poor transfers to begin w/, especially many imported foreign DVDs. But at some point, you just have to accept the poor transfers/quality and enjoy the movie if at all possible. :frowning:
Btw, I see people arguing about zooming vs scaling vs "aspect adjustment" here and there in HTF, but it's all based on so-called industry "standard" and/or HTF usages of such terms. Gotta love that.
_Man_

 

[Vic_P]

So how does this sound...

A 16:9 set, try to buy/rent 'enhanced' DVD's, use the strecth modes on the DVD player if necessary, turn the contrast down a bit, and stretch regular cable/TV broadcasts.

Does this basically sum it up? This should allow me to watch DVD's (in the best picture possible), TV and play games and reduce the chances of burn-in.

Am I getting warmer????