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Rogers & Hammerstein and other movie Aspect Ratios (1 Viewer)

DeeF

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So, DeeF, if I understand you correctly, there are two completely different versions of Oklahoma -- although practically identical? That's wild -- and I never knew that! THe two different versions (Todd-AO and CinemaScope) contain completely different takes of the scenes? Amazing!
Yes!

And not only are the versions using different takes, but they were set up differently, and shot at different parts of the day. The Todd-AO scenes were shot in the morning (hence, "Oh What A Beautiful Mornin'") and the Cinemascope scenes were shot in the afternoon. (Of course, the entire second half of the movie takes place at night, so these scenes show little differences, at least in terms of lighting and setup).

After the roadshow played out, most theaters showed the Cinemascope version, and the Todd-AO was retired. The Cinemascope version is what is familiar from television showings. Then when the Todd-AO version was restored in the 80s, the Cinemascope version kind of disappeared (if you have a video from the 80s, you have the Cinemascope version).

When the Todd-AO version was restored, most critics said it was superior in every way. Certainly its look is superior (with 30fps). But I'm not sure that the performances are better. I actually think the Cinemascope version has fresher performances, probably due to being done after the other, and also, a certain ease at making a "carbon copy."

I'd really like to have both versions, to compare for myself. I'm sure both are in pretty good shape.

By the way, there were other movies with completely different versions out there.

Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, shot in Academy and Cinemascope (two different movies, and you can get either one on video)

Brigadoon, shot in Academy and Cinemascope (though this is a pretty bad movie -- Vincent Minnelli didn't know how to use the widescreen, and neither did Gene Kelly)

Around the World in Eighty Days, once again shot in Todd-AO and Cinemascope, although unlike Oklahoma!, apparently the Todd-AO original roadshow version is unrestorable, so the restored version that is coming out contains pieces of both of these versions.

For Carousel, the plan was to shoot it twice, like Oklahoma!, using Cinemascope 55 (a 55mm film) and Cinemascope (regular 35mm). But it became apparent very quickly (after the first few days of shooting) that the wide film could be downprinted to 35mm, and still retain the lustre and sharpness of the widefilm. So the second "shooting" schedule was abandoned. Carousel was shot on the widefilm, but it was never projected that way -- only on regular 35mm film.

Frank did bow out, citing that shooting the movie "twice" deserved two salaries. This turns out to be rationalization, though -- he didn't really want to do the movie and this was his way out. He was completely costumed and recorded, and those recordings exist, for another tantalizing mystery. Capitol ought to find those recordings and put them out.
 

Thomas T

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You can add The Robe to your list of films shot flat and scope. As the first film released in the Cinemascope format, they had no idea how it would be received and very few theatres were equipped to show Cinemascope in 1953 so they wanted to cover all bases.
Cinemascope was a smashing success and to my knowledge I don't know that a flat The Robe was ever exhibited though I hope a print lies in the vaults of 20th Century Fox somewhere.
 

DaViD Boulet

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Just to chime in :)
similiar to these other example (Boy Dee...you really know your stuff!!!) is the animated Lady and the Tramp. Disney filmed/animated two distinct versions...one in cinemascope and one boni-fide 1.37:1 version so that all theaters would be certain they could have a print they could project.
The old 4x3 VHS was actually a P/S from the widescreen image. However, both versions were restored and issued on laserdisc (the newer VHS I believe uses the real 1.33 image). The DVD only contained the single widescreen version (non anamorphic).
I'd love some 16x9 versions of Brigadoon and 7 Brides/brothers to replace the existing BAD transfers on DVD...and it would be ultra-cool to have the alternate versions too!!!!
Dee, question about Around the World in 80 days...does the Todd-AO format always us 30 fps? If so...how easily could one meld together a single version from the elements from this and the standard version?...just thinking that would really complicate things from an authoring, or at least a de-interlacing point of view!
-dave
 

DeeF

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David, I'm really flattered. I'm really a musicals guy, not a film guy. I'm just repeating what I've read in various places on the Web.
From The Widescreen Museum:
Rather than film two significantly different versions, as was necessary in Oklahoma!, Todd's director of photography, Lionel Linden, A.S.C., shot both versions in 65mm. In some cases he used two identical Todd-AO cameras and lenses side by side, one running at 30fps for the 70mm version, and the other running at 24fps for the 35mm reduction print, in other cases the same camera was used by changing the camera speed, and in some cases, the material photographed by a single camera was used in both versions, though this could not be done with dialog sequences.
I know that there are a lot of different versions of Around the World in Eighty Days out there, many in private collections. It was projected in 70mm, 35mm, sometimes Cinemascope, sometimes other ways, particularly in Britain. It would be really hard to determine what the exact OAR is.
But in terms of putting it together, for a DVD, I think I learned from AMC that they used bits and pieces from different versions. Of course, probably everything was already printed on 35mm at 24fps, so it just involved cutting and pasting it back together, no "translating" needed.
But here's the page on the Widescreen Museum with the best information about the origins of the film:
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingto7.htm
Cheers!
 

Patrick McCart

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The Todd-AO version of Around the World in Eighty Days HAS in fact been restored to some extent (I have no idea if it's up to the standards of Vertigo or Superman, or other high-quality restorations). ONLY the 30fps negative has been restored, which seems to me like only that version needed restoring. It's possible the 24fps negative got little use after a 35mm anamorphic reduction element was produced. The 65mm 30fps negative was obviously required for every 70mm print, thus more wear and tear. The good thing is that the original 35mm prints were printed in the Technicolor process, so there's a good basis for the color.
A new 65mm element has been made from the supposedly restored negative and seems to be debuting at the Academy Theater during their best picture "year" later this year. The running time is 5 minutes longer, which shows the long-lost overture, intermission, and exit music must have been located. (The longest version before was 170 minutes)
The 30fps and 24fps versions could NOT be intertwined via seamless branching. The soundmixes are very different (the 35mm version is MONO, while the 70mm version has 6-track magnetic surround sound....yum) and the two films use different takes of each scene. Some 30fps versions of scenes were duplicated into the 24fps 65mm negative (Except for the prologue, all of the film was shot in 65mm, as opposed to using both 35mm Cinemascope and 65mm Todd-AO cameras for Oklahoma!) and would NOT work both ways. The best thing to do for DVD is to use a DVD-18 and put the 30fps version on one side and the 24fps version on the other. Two DVD-9's would be nice, but Eighty Days has a TON of possible supplemental features (including hundreds of reels of outtakes, behind-the-scenes footage, camera teasts, etc)...so a DVD-18 and a DVD-9 would be better (After all, once you get to see both versions, there will be only one you'll want to see on DVD :) )
The 1.33:1 version of The Robe actually was found a few years back. It's sort of in rough shape at reel changes, but it is an interesting look at the difference between the 2.55:1 and 1.33:1 versions. AMC, obviously, shows the flat version frequently. Fox SHOULD have put both on DVD, along with some CinemaScope-related stuff.
 

DaViD Boulet

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Cool. I'm definitely a movie nut, but also big into the following the genres of classic sci-fi, musicals (still waiting for Hello dolly on DVD) and Fanstasy. Feel free to check out my DVD collection here:
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speaking of musicals...are you into Sondheim? I've been enjoying the shows immensely at the Kennedy center here in Washington DC.
 

DeeF

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David

Yes, I LOVE Sondheim (and I've had dinner with him) and I'll be going to the Celebration the last weekend of this month (for the second installment of the series). His shows don't translate to film very well, though, although he himself is a huge film buff.

Patrick, you're obviously more well-versed in this stuff than am I.
One question:

The 1.33:1 version of The Robe actually was found a few years back. It's sort of in rough shape at reel changes, but it is an interesting look at the difference between the 2.55:1 and 1.33:1 versions. AMC, obviously, shows the flat version frequently. Fox SHOULD have put both on DVD, along with some CinemaScope-related stuff.
Is the version of The Robe shown on AMC the original Academy version, or is it a pan/scan version of the Cinemascope? When I was growing up, this is the movie I vividly remember being "squashed" on TV, the titles and people all thin and tall (for the credit sequences).

One thing I have noticed on my widescreen plasma: movies which are pan/scan versions of very widescreen features are incoherent. Without that extra information on the sides, usually very necessary to the storytelling, it's often quite difficult to know what's going on. As a child, many of these movies were quite baffling to me. Now, when I see them on my home system, I realize that I wasn't getting enough information, watching them on television (and they were also edited, whole scenes cut out, etc.)
 

DaViD Boulet

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One thing I have noticed on my widescreen plasma: movies which are pan/scan versions of very widescreen features are incoherent. Without that extra information on the sides, usually very necessary to the storytelling, it's often quite difficult to know what's going on. As a child, many of these movies were quite baffling to me. Now, when I see them on my home system, I realize that I wasn't getting enough information, watching them on television (and they were also edited, whole scenes cut out, etc.)
That is totally my experience. In fact, what turned me on to widescreen was way back when I saw Sound of Music letterboxed. I had no idea that you actually were meant to see all 7 kids at the same time until that moment :)
King and I is another one that seemed like "watching the movie for the first time" when I finally saw it in widescreen after years and year of watching P/S on TV as a kid.
Hello Dolly...yet another. The list goes on. It's neat in a way because whereas many experiences seemed deluded to some degree as an adult compared to our childhood memories, watching these films in WS for the first time now gives our adult experience of these musicals something new and vibrant; it gives them that "special" feeling of discovery all over again which is a rare and welcome treat with a loved and familiar childhood film.
-dave
 

TedD

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The soundmixes are very different (the 35mm version is MONO, while the 70mm version has 6-track magnetic surround sound....yum)
Sorry, Patrick, but only the general release 35mm prints were mono.

The Cinestage 35mm prints were four track magnetic with the surround track keyed for Perspecta and routed to left and right side channels, and a rear channel.

The aspect ratio of the Cinestage 35 mm prints was 2.20:1 and used a 1.5x anamorphic squeeze.

Ted
 

Patrick McCart

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Sorry, Patrick, but only the general release 35mm prints were mono.

The Cinestage 35mm prints were four track magnetic with the surround track keyed for Perspecta and routed to left and right side channels, and a rear channel.

The aspect ratio of the Cinestage 35 mm prints was 2.20:1 and used a 1.5x anamorphic squeeze.
I forgot about the Cinestage version... Thanks for bringing that up.

But still, the Cinestage and 70mm soundmixes are pretty much the same, while the regular 35mm mix was plain vanilla mono.
 

Jefferson

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I'm so glad to see that i'm not alone in loving the R and H classics. These were the first films i saw, as a child, on tv. And the first videos i purchased, but i've avoided the dvds because of the discussions above about nonanamorphic, etc....I loved the laser of the ToddAO Oklahoma, vastly superior to the cinemascope version.
Anyway, so glad to be among so many R and H'ers.
Can't understand why they won't redo such important titles properly.
 

DeeF

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Jefferson,

We'll have to get together, I live in NYC too.

But I'm interested, why do you think the Todd-AO is superior to the Cinemascope version of Oklahoma!?

You may be right, but I'd like to hear more details in your opinion.

One thing I think I know: you haven't seen the Cinemascope version WIDESCREEN. You've only seen the pan and scan version shown on television or made into a video.

But you've seen the Todd-AO version in widescreen on the LD. Of course, this would seem superior.
 

GregK

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SteveP is correct. This is also the same LD I referred to previously in this thread..
 

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