Religious Minded Films- Are they so terrrible? (1 Viewer)

[Jonathan Burk]

I forgot about The Spitfire Grill. I thought that was a great movie, and it was funded by a Catholic group, if I recall.
Does anyone know if the Omega Code movies and Left Behind made money for the investors?

 

[Kimmo Jaskari]

When you quote God's Army as a movie in this class, I have to assume it's the one quoted on IMDB as being made in 2000. The other movie mentioned above is actually called The Prophecy, it was only called God's Army in Europe (and it is a really good movie with good actors doing pretty good performances all round).

 

[Roberto Carlo]

Radar-code report back to home planet: Discussion bearing up nicely and evenly. Final comment to Mothership--these guys know how to do an interesting thread. Much like. They should keep up good work. Over and out.

This is a good thread! I feared a flame war when I saw the topic. To add my .02, I've been asked to write a book on religious themes and imagery in movies, so I've been giving this a lot of thought. For starters, I've concluded that the need to send a message almost always gets in the way of good story-telling. I don't know who it was who coined the phrase "show, don't tell" when it comes to movies, but that's the problem with many Christian films: they're so worried that you won't get the point that they hammer you over the head with it.

Second, Christians basically abandoned the creative world, including films, for nearly four generations. (A good book to check out on this score is "Pop Culture Wars" by William Romanowski.) So, they lack both the creative infrastructure and the financing to create a product, assuming they had a good script, that meets current quality standards.

The best thing ever written about "Christian movies" like "Left Behind" was written by a friend of mine, Rod Dreher, formerly the film critic at the New York Post:

"They [the makers of 'Left Behind'] have yet to learn the difference between art, even explicitly Christian art, and propaganda. Good intentions are no substitute for craftsmanship. Having your heart in the right place does not count for anything if your head doesn't know how to tell a story, if your hand can't write good dialogue, if your tongue can't speak lines convincingly, and your eye doesn't know where to aim the camera."

In my experience, this is true of most "Christian cinema." Like Rod, I'm also a believer and, believe me, I wish it weren't the case.

 

[Rich Malloy]

The "religious" movies could be good but they are usually not and it has more to do with acting and dialog as people have said.

Again, I disagree! I listed movies off the top of my head in my previous post, all of which take religion as their primary focus and all of which I'd place against any list of great films as their equal or better. Simply put, many of the greatest films ever made take religion as their subject matter and have been honored by critics and audiences alike.

IMO, there is no "conspiracy" against films of a religious theme - it's just that those listed in the first post and the majority of the discussion in this thread is concerned with examples of very poor religously-themed films, all of which strike me as being far more sensationalistic than sincere.

But just cause there's so much crap in this area, shouldn't detract from the many great films that have been made. I completely disagree with the notion that films about religion aren't very highly thought of by any arbiter or standard... just not the ones that the originator of this thread sought to focus on. Likewise, I could list endless gaggles of terrible sci-fi, horror, or romance films, but that doesn't mean there aren't multitudes of great ones in any of those genres.

I mean, everyone wants to talk about how terrible "Megiddo" is, but no one wants to discuss how brilliant "Ordet" is!

 

[Shane Gralaw]

The problem with Christian films is the same as the problem with gay films- mostly they're not very good but the subject matter will secure a release allowing it to slip through. Hundreds of cheesy indie films get made every year but they never get distribution because of audience standards and massive competition. Given the right subject matter they would.

But also, as Rich's list indicates, there are many well-made and challenging religious pictures, but a mainstream Christian audience is just as dumb as a regular mainstream audience and they probably won't seek them out or sit through them (do you think Christian Joe Six Pack will sit through a Dreyer film? Yeah, me neither). I always liken Christian films to the song "Spirit in the Sky". It's an openly spiritual tune, but so catchy and well made that it appeals to all. If a Christian fimmaker could do that, he or she could have a cross-over success.

 

[Marty Christion]

I'm pretty sure the "God's Army" referred to is the Mormon one (2000). It's about the trials of a Mormon missionary in Los Angeles, and it's actually pretty good. It should be considered a "successful" film, since it was praised by critics and earned back 10x it's $300,000 budget.

 

[Brook K]

Rich has listed some of the world's greatest films and if you are interested, I would urge you to seek them out. What sets apart many of them from the films that we see today, is that they do not, for the most part, espouse a particular religion or interpretation, but are instead films about faith and the search for understanding.

There was a series of 5 Revelation films in the 70's that are a precursor of the Omega Code/Left Behind type films. The first was A Distant Thunder, don't remember the rest, but if you can find them, very low-budget, campy, so- bad-it's-good fun.

 

[Mike Broadman]

Wow, what an interesting thread.

Ok, here's how I see it: if film is a valid and robust art form (which I'll assume we all agree that it is), than it's value is based upon the honesty and effectiveness of expressing the filmmakers' thoughts and feelings.

Therefore, if a film does this successfully, it can be appreciated by any audience who is open-minded, regardless of their personal worldview.

When dealing with messages films, be they religious, social, whatever, I personally feel that the artistically successful ones are those that present their points- leaving it out on the table, if you will. The failures take it upon themselves to bludgeon you with their preaching, making me feel like I'm being lectured at. Again, this is not limited to religious films, but it probably happens a lot.

If a movie is made by a committee of people who represent Christian interests above cinematic achievement, the film will suffer.

Some of these movies are designed to preach. There is an audience who wants that, but it won't work for anyone else.

The same is true for any art form: many musicians come from a spiritual or religious place, but they're music conveys emotion and thought that is part of the general human experience.

As an atheist, I can't relate to specific religious themes, so the movie won't work if it is preaching. But I can relate to anyone who is expressing faith, hope, love, etc, and if a movie does this well and is coming from a religious background and is done well, it will work.

 

[Paul Richardson]

Samuel Goldwyn once said about movie-making "If I wanted to send a message, I'd use a telegram!" The main problems facing religious movies are the same facing any movie where delivering a "message" is more important than storytelling and character development. Those who agree with you might be mildly interested, but you're preaching to the choir. For example, I believe in the message that "Racism is Bad." However, that's a simplistic message to build a movie around, and such a film will come across as an afterschool special. Those who don't share your point-of-view probably won't see the movie in the first place.
The best way to sell a "message" movie is to hide the message in your advertising, and then bushwack the audience once you've got their attention. The Cider House Rules took this approach, for instance. This is harder to do with religious based films, but not impossible. None of the previews for The Other Side of Heaven mention that the film is about a Mormon missionary, for instance. Another one is The Spitfire Grill. I haven't seen the film, and until reading this thread had no idea it was a religious based film.

 

[Jack Briggs]

The distinction being drawn in this thread is clear:

There are films made by specific sectarian interests whose primary intent is to get their messages/points across, often to the point of bludgeoning audiences. These films seem invariably to fail on all levels.

Then there are those films whose primary intent are to be films first and foremost--and which also have as their theme a strong religious component. It is doubtful The Last Temptation of Christ is ever going to be embraced by the audiences who flock to the type of film described in the paragraph above. (I seem to recall reading that Last Temptation was not even screened in commercial cinemas in Nashville, TN, during its first run. A local university ended up screening the film on campus.)

So, we have two different animals here. I believe the first "animal" is the focus of this thread. And the question is, can such a movie as The Omega Code ever be worthy of aesthetic consideration?

 

[Mark Pfeiffer]

Rich,

I don't think he's necessarily talking about films with religious themes in general. I think Jonathan means this sub-branch of films that typically espouse an overtly fundamentalist and literal Biblical interpretive worldview and are more concerned with witnessing or delivering a message than turning out great art.

I mean, everyone wants to talk about how terrible "Megiddo" is, but no one wants to discuss how brilliant "Ordet" is!

Again, I don't think that's the direction where he intends the thread to go. The films he mentions are for a specialized audience with the hope that they will find crossover viewers. Must those films be terrible? Chances are, yes, they probably will be for reasons already discussed. As well, I think films like Megiddo or Extreme Days are intended to serve as alternatives for religious moviegoers who find Hollywood or secular films unacceptable from a values standpoint.

Based on my observations, these films are more interested in telling the audience what to think (or scare them in those focused on eschatology), not in promoting dialogue or examining crises of faith.

Plus, just looking at general moviegoing tastes, you'd probably have a better chance of the average person on the street being more interested in seeing Megiddo than Ordet.

Tiptoeing around permissible and non-permissible things, classifying such films as "Christian" is accurate but not precise. Considering the many denominations and accompanying extremes in views (say, fundamentalism vs. unitarianism all under the umbrella of Christianity), that label isn't entirely representative, as if any could be.

As you've pointed out, there are many interesting, entertaining, and contemplative films about religion, but they probably are coming outside of the structure of religious groups producing their own films. For the viewer open to different perspectives or being challenged, your list of films is an excellent place to start.

 

[Mike Broadman]

Visual art, especially from the Renaissance, feature religious themes extensively, yet can and is appreciated on purely artisitic merits. Gospel music can be enjoyed outside of its overtly religious themes.

It stands to reason that the same can be done with film.

The difference is that Michaelangelo was an artist first, albeit one who came from a religious point of view. Those who make some of these religious movies are not artists/filmmakers.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Mark, I'm sure you're right, but I still don't think it's a fair representation. To answer the general question of this thread "Religious Minded Films - Are they so terrible?", I'd respond, very emphatically "No, they are some of the greatest films ever made!".

However, one can easily list a subset of highly moronic films to illustrate just the opposite. But you'd have to go way-out-of-your-way to select only the most moronic and sensationalist of films and remain willfully blind to the many, many classics that deal deeply and sincerely with this subject matter.

In other words, we have a skewed dataset. Sticking to the initial list, I'd agree that they're quite terrible. But this initial list is not a good sample and has been quite obviously skewed to include only those films that represent the most superficial and most sensationalistic of films. Superficiality and sensationalism are great when it comes to selling sex, violence, and general escapism, but that approach simply doesn't cut it when you're dealing with the fundamental questions of existence. So, forget all that crap - crap will exist in every genre, after all - and focus on the many great films. When it comes to religious themes, the world of cinema has produced many masterpieces.

 

[Paul Richardson]

Quote:

This is because the only way an artist could get paid at that time was from the Church. There was no other way to make a living. Nowadays, the big money comes from secular and commericial sources, and that's where most artists go.

 

[Damin J Toell]

This is because the only way an artist could get paid at that time was from the Church. There was no other way to make a living. Nowadays, the big money comes from secular and commericial sources, and that's where most artists go.

There were most certainly private patrons during the Renaissance. Or did you think that Da Vinci painted 'Mona Lisa' for a church...?

DJ

 

[Marty Christion]

None of the previews for The Other Side of Heaven mention that the film is about a Mormon missionary, for instance.

Does this indicate that the filmakers thought they had a chance with a wider, non-Mormon audience? I think so.
Based on what I know about this film, it cost around $8M, and has grossed less than half that. It also got terrible reviews. Since I haven't seen the film, I don't know if I agree with the reviews, but I wonder if the film was too "Mormon-y" for a non-Mormon viewer.
Or maybe it just isn't a good movie, and so you need to really be into Mormonism to enjoy it. It has the girl from Princess Diaries

, so how bad could it be?
Here's another intersting tidbit:
The Mormon murder mystery Brigham City (which my non-Mormon friends agree was an excellent film), has two different versions of cover art, one for Utah, the other for the rest of the country. They're really selling it to two different crowds. (Truth be told, it has little violence and no gore, so anyone who rents it based on the second cover is in for a disappointment.)
Link Removed

 

[Jeff Kleist]

(c'mon Gabriel would never be like that etc.)

I hate to say this, and Jack, feel free to delete if I'm out of line

But have you ever met Gabriel? If not, then how do you know how he acts? If you read the old testament, the Angels are BADASSES. They went an destroyed entire cities on basically a whim! And if Lucifer can act like that, so can any other Angel. After all, they are not perfect, and Angels do not have souls, only humans do. At least, according to the Bible.

I have always commended the Prophecy films for using the pre-existing stories as a solid basis, then building a modern-day world AROUND the guidelines set up there.
As an Atheist, I am required to be well versed in all the major religious texts (Torah, Bible, Koran, heck even the Book of Mormon) in order to be able to defend myself. I find these films to stay true to their source material without beating you over the head with it. Sure they're B worthy, but are they accurate to their source? YES

 

[Mark Pfeiffer]

Paul, I haven't seen God's Army (never played here), so I'll have to take your word for it. That said, based on what has played here, the vast majority haven't been like that.
Rich, maybe you should start up one focusing on the films you've mentioned.

 

[Russ Lucas]

I won't purport to speak for Rich, because he's made an excellent point on his own, but I think that his list, which includes both ardent believers (like Dreyer and Tarkovsky) and skeptics illustrates that it isn't simply a matter of true believers making lousy filmmakers. I don't doubt the genuineness of the faith of the people who make those lousy films, and I don't doubt Dreyer's or Tarkovsky's faith. One group of filmmakers simply has a much more highly acute sense of beauty and truth, and the art they produce differs accordingly. As noted above, a sad consequence of modern American Christianity has been a withdrawal of sorts from the creation of high art-- the kind of art that explores faith and belief in depth with honest seeking. I say this as a Christian who is challenged and uplifted by Dreyer, Tarkovsky and others in a way that I didn't know film could five or six years ago.

The tide will change, I'm confident, if a concerted effort is made to bring high culture back to the church. I'm doing what I can to hold discussion groups on Babette's Feast with every youth group that will screen it.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Marty, those two different covers speak volumes.
Mark, I don't see the need to start a different thread for "good" religiously-themed movies, especially since comparison with the "bad" ones can be so instructive. After all, it's the people who think all religiously-themed movies are as bad as "The Omega Code" (or, shudder, those who think movies like "The Omega Code" are good) who are probably in need of the most enlightenment.
A few interesting resources:
The Journal of Religion and Film http://www.unomaha.edu/~wwwjrf/
Notes on Cinema (from the Vatican website)
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/po...n.html#APPUNTI
Allow me to quote from this latter piece, as I think it's highly relevant to this topic:
Since its beginnings, in addition to well-tried subjects from the lighter forms of literature and popular theatre (adventure stories, dramas of passion, comedies), the cinema has always tried to tackle more culturally demanding subjects such as the life-stories of historical characters, adaptations of great masterpieces of literature and classical theatre. Among these have been stories from the Bible, above all the Passion of Jesus, which was one of the first subjects to be brought to the screen, following in the wake of popular religious dramas going back to the Middle Ages, whose traditions have been kept alive in certain places (such as Oberammergau in Bavaria) right up to the present day. The primitive "Passions" constitute an important chapter in the early history of the cinema. One scholar has counted over fifty which were filmed before 1915.
But it is obvious that subjects such as these, entrusted to the tender mercies of the film industry (which in the following decades has never ceased to remake them with ever more grandiose spectacle), can only obtain partially satisfactory results. The grandiose spectacle, in fact, is not always matched by a corresponding depth of interpretation, which can only be achieved with the requisite knowledge supported by the resources of art. This applies to many films which have been made on the life of Christ or of other Bible figures or the first Christian martyrs....
All the films of this kind, and there are many, are mainly characterized, with regard to the visual aspect, by a mawkishly sentimental style (known in France as Saint Sulpicien, in Italy as oleografico) which, while it may delight simpler people, nauseates persons of more cultivated taste and has often provoked the indignation of those who see in this sort of spectacle the exploitation of religious subjects for predominantly commercial purposes.
The author goes on to note many differing approaches, citing such great filmmakers as Tarkovsky, Buñuel, Bresson, and Kieslowski. And while I don't mean to make this a Christian-centric discussion, let me list the films that the Vatican recommends (by topic):
RELIGION:
Andrei Rublev
The Mission
The Passion of Joan of Arc
The Gospel According to St. Matthew
Therese
Ordet
The Sacrifice
Francis (not the Talking Mule picture)
Ben-Hur
Babette's Feast
Nazarin
Monsieur Vincent
A Man For All Seasons
La Passion Pathe
Flowers of St. Francis
VALUES:
Gandhi
Intolerance
The Decalogue
Au Revoir, Les Enfants
The Tree of Wooden Clogs
Open City
Wild Strawberries
The Seventh Seal
Chariots of Fire
The Bicycle Thief
It's A Wonderful Life
Schindler's List
On the Waterfront
The Burmese Harp