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lark144

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mark gross
Glad you liked it. I found is basically an American Doctor Zhivago wannabe, excruciatingly overloong and overrated. Viewing it once was enough- I felt trapped in the theater for over 3 hours.
I know people that felt that way, but I didn't.

I'd been obsessed by John Reed & Louise Bryant and that whole circle of poets, painters, anarchists, chefs--now that's a good hyphenate: "Anarchist-chef"--since I was a teenager. So I was probably a perfect audience. Then again, the characters of John Reed and Louise Bryant in "Reds" have little to do with the people they were based on. So many things were changed, a lot of it didn't make any sense.

And yet, I thought Warren Beatty, as a director, managed to impart a kind of poetic essence of who these characters were and what they stood for--in particular, the possibility of a better world. It's there in those images, in the light that glimmers around buildings, and also in the interstices between shots. The film is reaching for something that it can't quite grasp--a human life that isn't simply a straight line, from birth to death, but a continuum, because the things we do stand for something beyond what we do; in fact, there are a billion breaths involved in that, chance encounters, missed connections, and suddenly something happens. That's what I thought Warren Beatty was trying to show, that messiness of a life lived, and in order to show that, "Reds" is messy too. There are all these ellipses, roads not taken yet sketched out.

Because of this, I don't at all understand how you can compare "Reds" to David Lean. Lean's films are perfect. Every edit is accounted for. Whereas, in "Reds", that narrative is all over the place. Scenes are left dangling, and it's that lack of closure, that imperfection that I like about "Reds", because it evokes things that can't be articulated. And yet, somehow, they make it into the film, more ghostly than represented, in the folds of Jack Nicholson's face, for instance, or the green moss that runs up a brick building on Bedford Street. There's a physicality to the images in "Reds" you won't find in David Lean, as it's also a striving towards something undefinable, that nonetheless happened.
 

mskaye

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Overlong perhaps, but overrated not so much with any Lean film.
I admire Lean’s films - he was a master epic craftsman. There are images of beauty that are epic and famous. His films - with the exception of Dr. Zhivago - rarely touch my heart.
 

mskaye

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I know people that felt that way, but I didn't.

I'd been obsessed by John Reed & Louise Bryant and that whole circle of poets, painters, anarchists, chefs--now that's a good hyphenate: "Anarchist-chef"--since I was a teenager. So I was probably a perfect audience. Then again, the characters of John Reed and Louise Bryant in "Reds" have little to do with the people they were based on. So many things were changed, a lot of it didn't make any sense.

And yet, I thought Warren Beatty, as a director, managed to impart a kind of poetic essence of who these characters were and what they stood for--in particular, the possibility of a better world. It's there in those images, in the light that glimmers around buildings, and also in the interstices between shots. The film is reaching for something that it can't quite grasp--a human life that isn't simply a straight line, from birth to death, but a continuum, because the things we do stand for something beyond what we do; in fact, there are a billion breaths involved in that, chance encounters, missed connections, and suddenly something happens. That's what I thought Warren Beatty was trying to show, that messiness of a life lived, and in order to show that, "Reds" is messy too. There are all these ellipses, roads not taken yet sketched out.

Because of this, I don't at all understand how you can compare "Reds" to David Lean. Lean's films are perfect. Every edit is accounted for. Whereas, in "Reds", that narrative is all over the place. Scenes are left dangling, and it's that lack of closure, that imperfection that I like about "Reds", because it evokes things that can't be articulated. And yet, somehow, they make it into the film, more ghostly than represented, in the folds of Jack Nicholson's face, for instance, or the green moss that runs up a brick building on Bedford Street. There's a physicality to the images in "Reds" you won't find in David Lean, as it's also a striving towards something undefinable, that nonetheless happened.
You eloquently stated how I feel about the film. It aspires for something deeper and subtler. I find it heartbreaking in the same way I feel about Au Hasard Balthazar.
 

mskaye

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Glad you liked it. I found is basically an American Doctor Zhivago wannabe, excruciatingly overloong and overrated. Viewing it once was enough- I felt trapped in the theater for over 3 hours.
I feel Beatty had much higher aspirations in mind than simply making a Dr. Zhivago wannabe.
 

Robert Crawford

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I admire Lean’s films - he was a master epic craftsman. There are images of beauty that are epic and famous. His films - with the exception of Dr. Zhivago - rarely touch my heart.
Each of us have our own heart.:)
 

compson

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Glad you liked it. I found is basically an American Doctor Zhivago wannabe, excruciatingly overloong and overrated. Viewing it once was enough- I felt trapped in the theater for over 3 hours.
I’ve seen Reds numerous times, including several times in a theater the summer it was released, and I look forward to seeing it again. OTOH, I wouldn’t sit through Doctor Zhivago again if you put a gun to my head. No accounting for taste.
 

RMajidi

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Not seen Reds, and shall rectify that significant omission with this new release, together with picking up Heaven Can Wait that I've been hankering for.

Chariots of Fire has been denigrated here as some forgettable drivel, undeserving of an Oscar. Well, I've not forgotten the movie. The inner struggles of the two athletes spoke to me. I found the work moving, uplifting and absorbing; the performances indelible, and portions of the script profound. Ian Holm as coach Sam Mussabini - Wow, what a turn!

As to Lean's works being overlong, it reminded me of the film's assertion that Mozart's works have too many notes. Which notes precisely would you have him cut out? Sublime: Lawrence; Soul-stirring: Brief Encounter; Heart-warmingly hilarious: Hobson's Choice... he did it all. Overrated?
 

lark144

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Not seen Reds, and shall rectify that significant omission with this new release, together with picking up Heaven Can Wait that I've been hankering for.

Chariots of Fire has been denigrated here as some forgettable drivel, undeserving of an Oscar. Well, I've not forgotten the movie. The inner struggles of the two athletes spoke to me. I found the work moving, uplifting and absorbing; the performances indelible, and portions of the script profound. Ian Holm as coach Sam Mussabini - Wow, what a turn!

As to Lean's works being overlong, it reminded me of the film's assertion that Mozart's works have too many notes. Which notes precisely would you have him cut out? Sublime: Lawrence; Soul-stirring: Brief Encounter; Heart-warmingly hilarious: Hobson's Choice... he did it all. Overrated?
I didn't say David Lean's films were overlong. Only that they were perfect, and perfection can sometimes be a bit daunting, in particular, dealing with the enigma that was T. E. Lawrence. He was far from perfect, and though that is made clear in the text, the lucidity and even, yes, serenity of those images have a tendency to create a lovely absence in the main character--though Peter O'Toole is terrific in slipping atonalities into the fearful symmetry--sorry, couldn't help quoting Blake--of Lean's editing and compositions.

And as far as "Doctor Zhivago" is concerned...I suppose it's a deeply flawed film, as almost nothing of the poetry, let alone the deeper autobiographical elements that are transformed into something both internalized yet epic (& I mean epic in the Bretchtian sense; that is, carnivalesque--the rehersal of own, of deep self on the joyous, collective level) inherent in the novel gets onto the screen..but when I was 15, "Doctor Zhivago" was my favorite film. I must have seen it in a theater at least 40 times, and I'm not going to criticize it.

These days my favorite Lean films are those more modest black & white ones, in particular, "The Sound Barrier" & "Hobson's Choice".
 

RMajidi

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I didn't say David Lean's films were overlong. Only that they were perfect, and perfection can sometimes be a bit daunting, in particular, dealing with the enigma that was T. E. Lawrence. He was far from perfect, and though that is made clear in the text, the lucidity and even, yes, serenity of those images have a tendency to create a lovely absence in the main character--though Peter O'Toole is terrific in slipping atonalities into the fearful symmetry--sorry, couldn't help quoting Blake--of Lean's editing and compositions.

And as far as "Doctor Zhivago" is concerned...I suppose it's a deeply flawed film, as almost nothing of the poetry, let alone the deeper autobiographical elements that are transformed into something both internalized yet epic (& I mean epic in the Bretchtian sense; that is, carnivalesque--the rehersal of own, of deep self on the joyous, collective level) inherent in the novel gets onto the screen..but when I was 15, "Doctor Zhivago" was my favorite film. I must have seen it in a theater at least 40 times, and I'm not going to criticize it.

These days my favorite Lean films are those more modest black & white ones, in particular, "The Sound Barrier" & "Hobson's Choice".
The overlong and overrated opinion was actually offered up by another member here, not yourself, so no worries there.

In fact, double-checking his post just now, that member was referring to Reds in comparison to Zhivag specifically. He wasn't referring to David Lean in general, so put my indignation into the category of hot air over nothing.

Really enjoyed your earlier post about Reds, by the way... whetted my appetite for a first viewing.
 

owen35

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I'm no technical guru, but the press release says it was scanned in 4K with HDR. But that HDR color grading will have no effect on the actual disc release since it is not a 4K release, correct? I thought the additional color information is only present if it is a 4K disc. (Maybe it will be streamed in 4K.)
 

Worth

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I'm no technical guru, but the press release says it was scanned in 4K with HDR. But that HDR color grading will have no effect on the actual disc release since it is not a 4K release, correct? I thought the additional color information is only present if it is a 4K disc. (Maybe it will be streamed in 4K.)
Yes. They usually do the SDR transfer first, then tweak it for HDR.
 

Noel Aguirre

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And as far as "Doctor Zhivago" is concerned...I suppose it's a deeply flawed film, as almost nothing of the poetry, let alone the deeper autobiographical elements that are transformed into something both internalized yet epic (& I mean epic in the Bretchtian sense; that is, carnivalesque--the rehersal of own, of deep self on the joyous, collective level) inherent in the novel gets onto the screen..but when I was 15,
Rarely is comparing films to their source a worthy cause. Look to The Shining, Cabaret etc etc even the more recent In The Heights. Each is different than their source and each stands on their own as different yet excellent interpretations of their excellent source. Doctor Zhivago is a film of its time not a verbatim copy of its source yet an absolutely outstanding moving film that stands on its own.
Finally I would rather watch any lesser David Lean film to any Warren Beatty film and its all opinion based after all. In fact I can’t think of any Warren Beatty film as director I’ve ever really enjoyed? But glad you think otherwise.
 

Noel Aguirre

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Chariots of Fire has been denigrated here as some forgettable drivel, undeserving of an Oscar. Well, I've not forgotten the movie. The inner struggles of the two athletes spoke to me. I found the work moving, uplifting and absorbing; the performances indelible, and portions of the script profound. Ian Holm as coach Sam Mussabini - Wow, what a turn!
Totally agree and the Vangelis score is a classic no matter that it’s been parodied. And it’s beautifully photographed. Great script and well cast too.
 

lark144

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Rarely is comparing films to their source a worthy cause. Look to The Shining, Cabaret etc etc even the more recent In The Heights. Each is different than their source and each stands on their own as different yet excellent interpretations of their excellent source. Doctor Zhivago is a film of its time not a verbatim copy of its source yet an absolutely outstanding moving film that stands on its own.
Finally I would rather watch any lesser David Lean film to any Warren Beatty film and its all opinion based after all. In fact I can’t think of any Warren Beatty film as director I’ve ever really enjoyed? But glad you think otherwise.
To each their own,,,as someone here said.

But I think it's necessary to look at source material in a film and see whether it's faithful. From that perspective, "Dr. Zhivago" is a failure. However, I like it anyway, which is completely different. But even as a Lean film, it's weak. Basically, it's a bunch of pretty pictures set to music, and the most compelling, the snowscapes, Lean had nothing to do with, as those images were photographed and chosen by Nick Roeg.

It so happens that I saw "Cabaret" on Broadway and the whole point was that Sally Bowles can't sing. So casting Liza Minnelli in that role made no sense. It's a star vehicle that glamorizes the Nazis, and destroys the whole point of the show. Now I love Liza, and it's perfectly ok to like her singing those songs so memorably, but it makes her character and the entire narrative meaningless and empty. So one can like, even love the film for Liza and the inappropriate glamor Fosse infuses into a period that was savage and horrendous, but at the same time, one can also be objective about whether or not the film is successful in terms of the story and characters and what it's trying to show. And Fosse's film is all about showmanship and pretty photography at the expense of meaning and character.

As far as preferring a minor Lean to a major Beatty, that's perfectly ok. But then, sound and image aren't merely abstract, but have meaning. And while "Dr. Zhivago" may be perfect, it imparts almost nothing to me of what it might have been like to live though the Russian Revolution; while "Reds", which might be imperfect, does. It expresses both a sense of history as well as individual consciousness merging, which transcends sound and image, but somehow Beatty and his collaborators, for this particular viewer, pulled it off.
 

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