Record Label Seminar Claims DualDiscs Have Playback Problems

Discussion in 'Music' started by Lee Scoggins, Sep 7, 2004.

  1. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    I was disappointed to hear about more playback prblems with DualDiscs which are causing returns.



    http://www.audioholics.com/news/pres...onference2.php

    What is also interesting is that the economics may favor just bundling a CD and DVD instead which Warner is apparently supporting. That would seem to be a good value for the consumer. [​IMG]
     
  2. Michael St. Clair

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    Funny how dozens of us here and at Steve Hoffman bought pilot Dualdiscs and I haven't heard of any problems.

    What's even more funny is how you continued to defend Crest's defective SACDS, accusing us of spreading FUD and speculation that only a 'couple dozen' people probably had defective discs.

    There are many agendas in the recording industry and I suggest we all wait and see what really happens when the national rollout comes this fall. If DualDisc had 10% returns in Boston and Seattle there's no way they'd be hitting the market. Plus, with new products, quality control improves over time.

    Maybe DualDisc will succeed. Maybe it will fail. But my, how early the vultures are circling...and salivating.
     
  3. Garrett Lundy

    Garrett Lundy Producer

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    And the recording industry wonders why I haven't bought ANY hi-rez format player or media yet. [​IMG]

    Make up your damn minds about what you're going to sell to the public. In the mean-time, keep stocking the shelves with CD's!
     
  4. Rachael B

    Rachael B Producer

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    Tell me it ain't so...Philip's couldn't possibly have an agenda here![​IMG]
     
  5. Rich Malloy

    Rich Malloy Producer

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    I certainly don't know if it's true, but it's not surprising that a new media would have compatibility and other problems. I think Lee's onto something about just bundling DVD/DVD-A and CD (you know, like "Yoshimi"). Is manufacturing a dual-disc really more economical than bundling? Is it more desireable for consumers, or just another opportunity for confusion?

    I think Garrett makes the point that most music consumers would make. More than that, I suspect most music consumers would easily understand the "added value" of a CD bundled with a DVD, and particularly a DVD with much more content than the usual "bonus DVD" that's becoming nearly de rigeur for new releases from popular acts. Obviously there wouldn't be the confusion over "dual-disc" (will this play in my car?), and for those consumers who care, there's still the promise of high resolution with the right playback equipment.
     
  6. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    Garrett raises a fair point. There is a lot of consumer confusion given the proliferation of formats.
     
  7. Michael St. Clair

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  8. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    Mike,

    No one ever claimed that any particular retailer was lying about this, just that some were reporting problems. The link I supplied came from an industry seminar. I doubt the seminar would raise it without objection unless there were problems reported.

    You are always implying something that was not even addressed. Harrington received emails but no returns. Obviously there were a number of returns if the industry seminar claim was true.

    If you have evidence that the seminar statistics on 10% returns are false then I would certainly be interested in seeing them.
     
  9. Jeff Ulmer

    Jeff Ulmer Producer

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    I think the industry is busy shooting itself in the foot by trying to please too many camps with one product, egged along by anxious hardware developers looking to cash in on new patent royalties. While it may be technically feasable to make DualDiscs, why should the average consumer prefer it over conventional CD, since they aren't accessing the hi-rez content anyway? The downside is a disc that is more prone to damage from dual playing surfaces, and appears to have a higher than acceptable compatability issue, not to mention a more complicated (and thus more expensive, and more prone to defects) replicating process. I fail to see how the higher inherent costs of manufacturing DD can be recouped at retail, especially if the target pricing is anywhere close to current CD pricing.

    Just establish a single format for hi-rez and MC, and let the consumer rebuy their catalogue on that. Until then, there is always the good old CD.
     
  10. PaulDA

    PaulDA Cinematographer

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    The solution is simple. SACDs should all be hybrids (and any new releases should be single inventory), and if video extras are desired, then package them with a DVD-V like Goodbye Yellow Brick Road. Alternatively, DVD-As should come packaged with a CD "go anywhere" version (can't really be that expensive). In both cases, the "extras" disc would be easily marketed a la "two-disc" DVD-V packages, people would pay a bit extra for the "extras"--as they do with DVD-Vs--and more hi-res titles would be out there for those of us who want them. Current universal players can continue to play all formats and everyone is happy. No need to choose between SACD and DVD-A, just pick the titles you want.

    Oh yes, I forgot, we're talking about the record industry. Silly me. [​IMG]
     
  11. Michael St. Clair

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    It came from Philips. Let us just say that I take it with a grain of salt. [​IMG]

    There is lots of conflicting 'data' out there (if you can call it that) and too many agendas for me to believe anything out there. Big companies will skew statistics when it suits them.

    The proof will be in the pudding this winter. We shall all see what happens. Everything until then is just so much spin, on both sides.
     
  12. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    I agree with Jeff's logic....also, you invite some disc issues with a "flipper" since fingerprints may obscure the hirez layer. It seems it would be more advantageous to offer a two disc combo. You would get these benefits:

    1. Consumer is less confused since he knows CD and DVD but not DualDisc.
    2. Consumer has no playback issues.
    3. Consumer believes he will get more value, after all there are two whole discs being provided.

    The only advantage I see to DualDisc is that a new brand could be established but there are real "format fatigue" issues here.

    But I remain all for it if it leads to more hirez titles.
     
  13. Michael St. Clair

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    In a way that some feel is designed to create confusion for the format by omitting high-res on all releases.
     
  14. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    Even if that were true, it would not be evidence that the Philips people in the above story are lying.
     
  15. Phil A

    Phil A Producer

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    There seem to be a fair amt. of posts on Audio Asylum documenting some of the problems. This includes quotes from Amazon's UK site (where the discs have just been available from my reading) and it indicates on the Amazon UK web site:

    "This album is a Dualdisc DVD/CD format. These discs are slightly thicker than normal CDs and will not play in front-slot-loading CD players".

    From further posts I've seen, it would appear that most of the players it may have problems with are stuff like car CD players. Still, I don't have any intention of being a guinea pig and see if there are problems with my players and end up with a hardware problem. I have about 15 things I have not listened to at present and probably close to that many I want. So I will be patient and if there are no reported problems I might try some eventually but not in the near future.
     
  16. Marc Colella

    Marc Colella Cinematographer

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    Compatability was a known variable going in - nothing surprising here. They'll try to make them as compatable as possible, but it'll never be perfect.
    If DualDisc takes off, I'm sure manufacturers will try to ensure their players are able to play the discs.

    I've got some hybrid SACDs that won't play in either some DVD-V players, DVD-ROM drives, car players, or an older model CD player. Make a copy of the CD layer and you're good to go.

    EDIT:

    Someone posted at the AA that DD is now available in the UK (Amazon and HMV). They're priced as regular CDs - which is good to hear.
     
  17. Will_B

    Will_B Producer

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    It's true.

    I put my DualDisc in my car's CD player, then went into my living room and turned on the tv, and I didn't see anything.


    Except that it's double the weight, so there's no savings on the part of the shipping to stores. Plus, look at the prices when they are seperate products - the David Bowie "Black Tie White Noise" CD+DVD is upwards of $30! Compared to David Bowie's DualDisc of Reality and the Reality Film for, well, here in the test market it was about $14.

    But moreoever, the concept of an "album" changes when it is one single item. When it is two different products packaged together, the effect on an emotional level is just not the same. Once you've tried a DualDisc yourself, you'll understand - it redefines what an album is. But put two different discs in a case, and all you have is "the album" (meaning the CD) and "the DVD" (meaning the DVD). It just doesn't have the same effect.
     
  18. Will_B

    Will_B Producer

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    They're selling the American, NTSC format DualDiscs in the UK? Hope that doesn't add another layer of confusion to it.
     
  19. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    It may be made up for in more volume.

    Consumers will definitely think they are getting more value from seeing 2 discs, rightly or wrongly.
     
  20. Rachael B

    Rachael B Producer

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    Giving you two disc in the deal isn't exactly new. I got Boz Scaggs' DVD-A & CD bundled about 4 years ago. I got a Peter Weller CD with a DVD-V included. My weirdest find was an Australian copy of the group, which isn't jumping in my brain at this moment, well the CD had two copies of the album. One for home and one for car, it said that on the packaging. Yeah, I have the Flamed Lipies double shot too. ...not a new idea...

    Gee, I wonder vhy zee Sonies det naut tink auh dat ond putt auh Cee-Dee en wit zaire singly-latered SA's?[​IMG]
     

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