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Recievers..narrowed down to 3..some questions

Discussion in 'AV Receivers' started by John Wes, Jan 19, 2003.

  1. Phil Mays

    Phil Mays Second Unit

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    Thank you Nick & Peter, just as I suspected all along.
    Just another plot by the audio industry to overthrow the government to create a utilitarian society of flower a bead wearing conformists.[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  2. John Wes

    John Wes Stunt Coordinator

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    Wow...a couple of good answers. Yes I'm aware that the 192 dacs have no value in the reciver for DVD-A as the DVD players all have their own decoding...((the exception being the 49 tx with a firewire input from Pioneer's DVD player)..

    So...does anyone know if the 192's are even being utilized for say....upsampling? From what I'm reading, it looks like the 96 kHz dacs are being used for CD's and not the 192's?
     
  3. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

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    The difference in DACs means nothing except that the 192K datarate might allow the receiver to decode DVD-Audio digital streams at that rate? (That's not so important since a DVD-A player can do that too and I don't even know if they have digital outputs). Regardless of the DAC specification in the receiver, it's probably of relatively low quality and isn't any better than a standard 16-bit 44KHz DAC implemented correctly. So, don't worry about it and just buy the receiver that sounds better.

    The higher bitrate DACs could be oversampling more, but that probably makes little difference as far as we're concerned.
     
  4. ChrisHeflen

    ChrisHeflen Supporting Actor

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    First off, I can't believe that a dealer who is selling $1000.00+++ receivers can't even tell you the diffeneces in the dacs, 192 over 96 whatever. They should be reported.

    Second, call Pioneer and Denon and ask them about it.
    Ask them what they think the difference is and compare the two and then weed out the one that makes the least sense.
    I know you've already made your choice, (a good one I think)
    but you should still find out.

    I don't know what the 47tx and 4802 are going for these days close to $2000.00? I think that since you've spent that much money, they OWE YOU an answer.
     
  5. John Wes

    John Wes Stunt Coordinator

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  6. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

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    What they said was a cookie cutter response that does not at all answer your question, I'm afraid. I don't know what kind of upsampling is going on, but I will tell you that that specific thing really doesn't matter.
     
  7. John Wes

    John Wes Stunt Coordinator

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    Thanks for your reply, Michael. I sent another email and ask them again....
    I'm posting this as I find the whole thing quite humorous..[​IMG]
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Just take off from my above post to see where this is headed. [​IMG]
    Thanks for taking the time to address my question. The funny thing is.....it
    still leaves the better part of my question unanswerd.
    Let me try it this way......
    Let's take CD's . If I use the digital out of my player, which DAC is doing
    the decoding? The 24 bit 96 kHz DAC or the 192 kHz 24 DAC.....
    If it's the 96 kHz DAC, then what's the 192 kHz DAC used for?
    Thanks for your response.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    what's the 192 kHz DAC used for?
    Pioneer: For DVD audio disc's.
    : DVD-Audio recordings made in 192KHz/24 bit PCM contain a higher volume of data than DSD recordings
    What does DVD-Audio sound like?
    The 192kHz or 96kHz/24-bit linear PCM sound exhibits sharp transient response, with clear reproduction of instruments such as cymbals having plentiful high-frequency content, and rich, authentic timbre in the mid and low frequencies. Rapid
    high-frequency passages show excellent definition of individual notes, while stereo imaging presents a precise sound stage with great depth and solidity. Also, multi-channel capability means you can experience the acoustics of the best concert seats
    or instantly reproduce the ambience of a cozy club in your living room. The natural richness of the sound makes the performance come alive, delivering a convincing "you are there" effect. Car audio surround sound is a particular area that will benefit
    from multi-channel DVD-Audio reproduction.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++
    Ummm..So......this is going nowhere. If that's what it's for, including it is worthless....since the digital out is disabled for DVD-A on the players. Except for Pioneer's firewire Elite's, which this reciever dosn't have. [​IMG]
    Mods...if this is not in good taste, go ahead and delete it. I'm only adding to the thread so as to answer the question on the 192 kHz DAC....and .........It's getting rather comical. lol
     
  8. Daniel T.

    Daniel T. Agent

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    From what I've gleaned the digital outs are nixed for copyright reasons. The analog outs WILL send all the info(SACD in all of its glory). Some DVD-A's will play in digital 192kHZ...some not all. SACD's will not, they all have the copyright protection built in. With the Pioneer DV45 you can watch the bitrate/sampling values with an on screen display, I managed to snag a DVD-A demo disc that jumps between high-rez and normal 44kHZ playback. With the on screen display you can see the jump of info being sent to the receiver/amp. I have to run my amp in analog inputs to be able to "hear" the jump(as the digital outs are disabled). I wish the maker of the disc was a bit more even-handed, because when the signal switches, it comes in at times during the music where the track crescendo's or something sonically interesting happens.

    Did that make any sense?
     
  9. John Wes

    John Wes Stunt Coordinator

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    Thanks for your input, Daniel T. [​IMG]
    In my first post on this subject, I pointed out that the player disables the digital out for hi rez DVD-A. In fact most of the DVD-A's I own the digital out is disabled except for the DTS track of course. So I'm trying to figure out if the 24bit/192 kHZ in the reciever is being used at all.....
    Again from their site..
    "All Channel 192 kHz/24-Bit DAC"
    then
    in the next bullet you show.."96 kHz/24 Bit DAC A/D Conversion (Front,
    Left & Right)
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++
    ???????????????????????
    >
    > But the digital out's on your DVD-A players are disabled for
    DVD-A.......Are
    > you sure your answer is correct? If so, you included a 24bit 192 kHz DAC
    for
    > nothing. In fact I know of no DVD-A player that dosn't disable the digital
    > outs. The firewire option on the VSX47tx to the VSX49txi reciver being
    the
    > exception but that option isn't available on the VSX-47TX reciever so if
    > your answer is true, it's an added expense for naught.
    >
    > Please reread all the questions and research this? I've ask this questions
    > in several forums. and nobody has a clue as to why you would include it if
    > it didn't do anything.
    >
    > Thanks

    what's the 192 kHz DAC used for?
    >
    > Pioneer:
    >
    > But the digital out's on your DVD-A players are disabled for
    DVD-A.......Are
    > you sure your answer is correct?
    >
    > Pioneer: The DVD player send out the signal with the 5.1 outputs. The
    DVD player uses it's DA converter at 192khz and send the audio out analog
    to the receivers 5.1 inputs.
    >
    >
    >
    > the 49TXI corresponds to the audio signal transmitted using an A&M
    protocol only.
    > If the DVD Player with I-link corresponds to the A&M protocol, it will not
    work certainly.
    >
    >
    > In fact I know of no DVD-A player that dosn't disable the digital
    > outs.
    >
    > Pioneer: In the DVD player you select 5.1 output, now the player only
    send the signal through the 5.1 outputs to the Receiver. It a menu feature
    in the DVD player.
    >
    >
    > Pioneer is using the standard IEEE1394 protocol and IEEE1394 cabling for
    the connection between the VSX49TXi and the DV47Ai.
    >
    > We are the first to adopt this standard connection method. Denon is using
    a the IEEE1394 protocol, but transferring over a "CAT 5" wire. My belief is
    that Denon's system is a very much "closed" system and must be used only
    with Denon, UNLESS anyone
    > else supports their approach.
    >
    > Pioneer looked more at what standards are available, that was supported by
    the DVD Forum as well as a standard that was supported by the studios.
    Pioneer believes that more mfgs will soon be introducing products supporting
    the IEEE1394 protocol as
    > well as the IEEE1394 connection cable.
    > Standards create business.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Something I never considered...maybe those responding, don't read English very well. ...dunno..
    IMHO.....I do find this amusing and hopefully will get a real answer soon. [​IMG]
     
  10. Tony Casler

    Tony Casler Agent

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    I'll take a stab at this. First, the easy part, TXi vs. 47TX.
    The amplifier sections are identical, except that the 49 has "audiophile copper upgrades," nothing to get too worked up over. The 49 uses two Sharc chips, the 47 has one. the 49 has two more digital inputs, one more s-vid/av input, and the chassis is copper shielded. So far, minor differences. What you are really paying the extra thousand for is the 49's firewire connection, which is used to carry DVD-A/SACD to the reciever in digital form, where it can be processed for bass management, speaker distance, etc digitally, without any loss of audio quality. This is a great feature, but so far the Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai is the only player with firewire capability.

    Now for the 192/24 vs 96/24.
    The pioneers have 192KHz/24bit DACs and 96KHz/24bit ADCs. The DAC is used for processing digital signals (CD, Dolby Digital, DTS, MP3, etc). This chip upsamples the incoming digital signal to 192/24 and then converts it to analog for your listening pleasure. The way digital sound works is much like a connect-the dots picture. When an analog wave is sampled, a "dot" istaken from the wave a certain number of times per second. CDs use 44.1KHz sampling, meaning there are 44,100 "dots" per second. Upsampling calculates where the "dots" would have been at a higher sampling frequency and adds them in. With the Pioneer's chip, this would equate to 192,000 "dots" per second, which is much denser and closer to the original sound wave. The Denon's 96/24 DAC works the same way, but only converts up to 96,000 "dots" per second.

    The 96/24 ADC does exactly the opposite. Incoming analog signals are converted to 96/24 digital to allow for digital signal processing, and then run through the 192/24 DAC for conversion back to an analog wave for listening. Many receivers have a bypass mode, so that if you do not wish to apply any sort of DSP, the analog wave travels through without any conversions, which can help to maximise sound quality.

    I hope this helped.
     
  11. John Wes

    John Wes Stunt Coordinator

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    Ah ha.......so far....that's the only answer I've found that makes sense.

    So...the CD IS upsampled before converting to analog...using the 24bit 192 kHz DAC..

    That's all I'm looking to find out about. I already knew what the extra money was for with the "i"...(firewire)..

    I just couldn't figure out which DAC was actually doing the work for music.

    Thanks for taking the time to explain this.


    (Do you work for Denon or Yamaha or something? lol)
     
  12. Tony Casler

    Tony Casler Agent

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    I'm a cryptologic technician in the navy, my job requires a good amount of knowledge about electronics and such.
    I have also sold my soul to Pioneer, I have plans for a 49TXi to join my DV-47Ai in the near future.
     
  13. Daniel T.

    Daniel T. Agent

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    Tony Casler-

    Whoa, a font of information. Mind if I ask a question then? What kind of signal is a DVD-A sending via the analog 5.1 outs? If its the "enhanced audio" stuff is the analog signal 192 or 96? I'm mainly curious, as my DV45 won't do the 192 I don't think.
     
  14. Tony Casler

    Tony Casler Agent

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    The 5.1 outputs carry a very low powered electromagnetic wave which is then amplified and sent out to the speakers, causing them to move in time with the wave, which moves air to create an audible sound wave. The DV-45A, like any other DVD-A player, is compatible with 192KHz audio, but only in stereo. The DVD-A standard limits multichannel tracks to 96 KHz, and stereo to 192.
    Edit: I forgot to add that there is no sampling frequency attached to the analog wave because it is not sampled, it is an continuous wave rather than a set of sampled points.
     
  15. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

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    Tony,

    That's correct, but why would a higher sampling frequency DAC sound any better? The CD only contains 44KHz of information and a lowpass filter removes the higher frequencies anyway, smoothing the waveform. It's true that a shallower or higher frequency analog lowpass can be used with 192KHz vs. 96KHz sampling, but with the quality of the rest of the stuff in that receiver and the possibly added sensitivity to jitter, is it really going to make a difference?
     
  16. John Wes

    John Wes Stunt Coordinator

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  17. CurtisC

    CurtisC Second Unit

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    How about a new idea,the Denon 3803(it has features the 4802 does not ie. 192/24),and has some 5803 pre/pro technology AL24 etc.).Then you add a big fat 200+ watt multi ch amp for about $1.5k and compare to other choices.
     
  18. pradike

    pradike Stunt Coordinator

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    As a one-month owner of a new Onkyo 989v2 receiver, I can tell you that this is the greatest thing since sliced bread if you want a true THX Home Theater. It is THX certified, has tremendous input and output specs and connections, and has been very highly rated in several magazines.

    This is Onkyo's top receiver, and can be bought in the $2900 range (street price)...maybe even a bit less.

    With my matching Onkyo SP800 top end DVD /SACD player, the results are stunning. Top end audio...top end video processing, and fantastic connectivity.

    I would highly recommend.
     
  19. John Wes

    John Wes Stunt Coordinator

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    Well for those that are interesed the DAC questions.....I finally got an answer from an engineer in Japan.....
    Here you go......
    _=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=
    Pretty easy...
    96khz/24-bit AD conversion takes all analog input and converts it to 96k/24-bit digital pcm... DNR, MCACC, dolby pro-logic, etc. are processed then converted back to analog for amplification using the 192khz/24-bit DAC's providing much smoother digital conversion... More detail at low volume passages...
    The cool thing is the VSX49TXi... 8 96khz/24-bit DAC's... Converts all channels of analog DVD-Audio to digital and provides bass management and MCACC to DVD-A and SACD. The VSX47 provides 2 96k/24-bit ADC's... Can not convert DVD-A or SACD to digital...
    D. Bales
    HECA Marketing Manager - Audio

    This would also explain why I have no bass management from my 45a DVD player if I use the player to decode CD's or if I use DVD-A or SACD.....that is one huge bummer since I just built my first sub.....
    Also...the part about converting all analog to digital with the 96 kHz part...must be incorrect. My guess is it's for all signal processing. Such as bass management, and effects for music ect ect.....I come by this because any digital signal passed to the 47TX, (CD's ect) get bm while any analog inputs do not.
     
  20. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

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    John, I'm glad you found an answer (sort of)... and don't worry about it, since the extra processing found to apply bass management to multichannel analog could hurt the sound quality and it probably isn't very flexible. A relatively cheap external crossover probably works better.
     

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