Receiver with no HDMI (1 Viewer)

[Iconoclast]

I currently have a 2003 model A/V receiver. The Pioneer VSX-D912 (specs below.)


I am rearranging the room soon to have true Home Theater.
I will upgrade plasma TV from 42” EDTV to 65” HDTV, upgrade DVD to Blu-Ray, upgrade from 2.1 to 5.1 sound & upgrade regular analog to HD digital Cox cable.

I’d prefer to not have to purchase a new A/V receiver. I’ve been reading about HDMI & my question relates to quality of video & audio signal rather than the obvious convenience of a thin cable carrying excellent digital & audio sound rather than 4-5 bulky cables. I currently use component cable for video & standard RCA for audio.
I would continue to use the component for video & change the audio to digital, optical toslink (or Digital Coax if needed).

Does anyone think the quality of my video or audio signal will be less than if I was suing HDMI?

And BTW, what is all this I read about copy protection with HDMI & not with older methods?

I’m planning on getting an HD DVR with A DVD -R. I always time-shift my TV shows with a VCR, never watch anything live. I sure hope I won’t be blocked from recording any digital TV to watch later. I also thought I could burn a DVD for any shows I wanted to archive.

I appreciate any advice,

Steve

 

[RAF]

With an HD DVR you can record shows to watch later but I believe that copy protection laws prevent the burning of any DVDs from HD sources. At least that's the way it works with all my Dish HD DVR boxes (722s and 622s). You can add an external HD for additional archiving but it is tied to the DVRs in your house and can't be used to dump material to DVD.

Incidentally, HDMI is now a mature technology (see the first thread in this section for my latest thoughts on this) and more and more material is better through HDMI. In some cases, that's the only way you can get it (at least certain audio codecs) from some sources. I've not come across any copy protection issues with HDMI (not to say that something couldn't surface at some point in time) but it's well known that there is an (up to now) unused copy protection "token" built into component video that could be turned on by source providers rendering a lot of older sets incapable of displaying "tokenized" HD content. While most people are of the opinion that this will never happen, I've learned to never say "never."

 

[gene c]

I prefer coax to optical. Same audio quality with a much more secure connection.

 

[Ed Moxley]

I think the best video you can get from component connections is 1080i. Not bad, but not the best. Like gene said, go to tv with HDMI for video, if the tv is a 1080p set. If it's not, then use the component connections.

You say you're going to upgrade to blu ray. You don't want the best sound possible from it? Not possible to hear the HD (lossless) audio soundtrack from blu ray movies, using optical or digital coax. You'll just get DD or DTS, and not Dolby TrueHD, or dtsHD Master Audio. If your receiver has 5.1/7.1 analog inputs, you can get a BD player like the Sony BDP-S550 or the Panasonic BD55, that decodes the HD audio internally and sends it out over the 5.1/7.1 analog outputs, and hear the HD audio that way. It sounds very good!
Good luck with whatever you do.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks to all who replied!


Robert, From what you say the purpose of having a DVD recorder and a DVD in one component may be wasted. Unless you can burn a DVD of some TV shows & not others that have been recorded on the DVR. I suppose I can record to the DVD direct as it is broadcast? Never recorded on anything but VCR tapes so not sure how/what I’d do but, options would be nice. I suppose if I had an A/V Receiver with HDMI, I’d probably use that unless I head a great reason to not use it. But, I do not.

Gene, you say I connect my Cox HD digital Receiver direct to my HDTV & do the same with my BR player bypassing the A/V/ video receiver. And use HDMI for this. Then I assume I run an output from my TV to the Receiver since the receiver has to power the speakers. (The main reason for having an A/V Receiver at all is for the sound, right?

I hadn’t realized there were different ways to set this up given the same components.

I will have :

Panasonic TH 65PZ850U 65” HDTV Plasma
Panasonic DMP BD35K Blu-Ray
Pioneer VSX-D912 A/V Receiver
Old Teac Cassette deck with DbX & Dolby NR
Old Sony VCR
Pioneer 6 CD changer

Whatever Cox HD digital Cable box I am forced to rent (Don’t think I can buy my own or chose)

Have yet to shop/learn but will get a DVR/DVD recorder so I don’t have to rent a used one from Cox.

So, I’ll have 7 components each with a remote control & will probably soon shop/research a good universal remote.

So, 75 Ohm Coax cable comes out of wall & I split it. One half to VCR & Then connect VCR to TV using both 75 Ohm Coax and composite & RCA Audio.

Other ½ Coax from split to rented Cox HD digital Cable box. Then connect Cable Box to A/V receiver (with what?)

CD, Cassette connect to A/V receiver much as they are now by analog RCA plugs.

I’ll need to refer to diagrams & make sure I have the correct cables.

Ed, Are you sure that I will be stuck with 1080i & cannot get 1080p unless I use HDMI? That would be enough for me to buy a new receiver. Hopefully the Panasonic DMP BD35K Blu-Ray player is able to decode the HD audio into analog outputs.

 

[King Ghidora]

I'm planning on connecting a Dish DVR to my new Sharp Aquos LC-C5255U. It has a digital out connection for audio which is optical. I hope to run my DD AVR off of this output jack. My avr has no HDMI connectors. Can anyone give me an idea what I might expect trying to operate this way? Will there be a problem getting DD audio to my avr? The DVR also has a digital output. Will it provide sound to my avr while I'm connected to the monitor via HDMI? My avr has component connections but I don't want the limitations on video quality that entails.

 

[Ed Moxley]

Look at the Harmony remotes. They're one of the best out there. Just make sure to get one that takes the place of 7 or more components. Amazon.com usually has good prices on them.
Good luck!

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Two points:

99.9% of the time, the digital audio output on a TV is only for the internal tuner to supply DD 5.1 to an external receiver. It will not pass anything but PCM 2.0 stereo from an HDMI in, if it passes anything at all. When dealing with a receiver that has no HDMI, you must go from the component (BD, DVD, cable box) directly to the receiver using coax/optical.

Harmony remotes are the best remotes made. Period. Buy any one that you can afford, you will never regret it. Best of all, any tech-illiterate family members will like it even more than you do.

 

[King Ghidora]

Thanks for the help Jeff. Do you know if a Dish DVR (or other components) will output digital audio in addition to HDMI? I know the Dish DVR has a optical out connection and my receiver will accept optical in connections. I'm just hoping not to have to buy a new avr. I just bought one a couple of years ago when I didn't expect to be upgrading to HD for quite a while.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Optical out is digital audio. The other form of digital audio is Coax.

 

[King Ghidora]

I know that. I have both optical and coaxial inputs on my avr. The question is will the sound be output through my optical connection while HDMI is operating. I just wanted to make sure that the digital audio out will work while my HDMI is carrying my video signal. I thought it might be possible that the optical could be disabled if I was using HDMI.

 

[DaveF]

I've just been through a similar upgrade: new TV and 2001-era Receiver.

With a non-HDMI receiver, you want to send all digital audio directly from the source to the receiver. For example, I have a Tivo HD connected by HDMI to the TV and by optical audio to the receiver.

My Xbox 360 doesn't allow HDMI and optical audio, so it's connected by component video for 1080i via the receiver.

With an old receiver and a new TV, it took a while to converge on a workable set of connections. But it lets me hold off on a new receiver for a while longer.

And I have and strongly recommend the Harmony One remote.

 

[Stephen Tu]

It doesn't really matter that you don't have HDMI on your receiver. You can always run HDMI between source and display (and get 1080p), while running separate optical connection, or coax digital, or multi-ch analog between source & receiver for the sound. No real need to upgrade the receiver if it otherwise has enough inputs.

If you get a TivoHD you can add gobs of storage and also transfer most shows to a networked PC if you want archival. I wouldn't bother with DVD-R, personally. The quality sucks compared to just storing the original HD, and IMO in most cases if a show is really worth having on disc it's worth it to just buy the DVD and have all the commercials & station bugs removed.

 

[King Ghidora]

I think you're mistaking a DVR with a DVD-R Stephen. A DVR is what a Tivo is only the one I'm getting comes from Dish satellite service. It's cheaper and better than a Tivo. You can also add additional hard drives for extra storage and the record schedule works with the Dish channel guide which is something Tivo can't do AFAIK. For example a my current Dish DVR records two programs at once and it will record 2 hours of the channel you are currently watching. I believe Tivo only records 30 minutes unless things have changed. Plus the cost of Tivo is much higher than the $5 a month I pay for a dual receiver/recorder with Dish. In fact the new Dish DVR's are capable of recording 3 shows at once while you're watching a 4th show that you already have recorded.

I haven't watched a tv show straight through in years it seems. No matter what it on I'll end up pausing it and coming back later. As long as it's within 2 hours I can pick up right where I left off. You can't do that with Tivo AFAIK.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Thanks for my laugh of the morning. First you assert that the Dish DVR is better than a TiVO (who told you that, the Dish salesman?), then you demonstrate that you don't know anything about TiVO. (Hint: Yes, you can pause live TV with one.)

The fact is that TiVO isn't an option for satellite users, it is only available for cable. But everyone I know who uses a satellite or cable DVR and who has also used a TiVO would tell you that TiVO is, hands down, the best DVR on the market. It has the best and simplest interface there is. My 79 year old mom refuses to give up the ancient DirecTiVO in her bedroom and hates the "upgraded" DirecTV DVR she has in her sitting room. (So do I.) My Comcast DVR is a piece of junk compared to my old TiVOs, but they weren't HD and I can't afford the new hardware, so I compromise.

Unless the Dish DVR has been vastly improved since I last saw one, you're going to get a workmanlike DVR with decent functionality, but without the refinement of a TiVO.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Much to consider. I do not want to have 1080i since my new TV will be a 65” 1080p. I also want no up-conversion problems as I have several hundred anamorphic DVDs. I will Check out Harmony remotes.

(BTW, I have never had any type of cable box b4). So, will I get 1080p excellent video & at least very good digital audio if I keep my non-HDMI AVR and connect as follows.

BR to TV with HDMI AND BR to AVR with optical or coax audio.

Cox Cable box to TV with HDMI AND Cable box to AVR with optical or coax audio.


Cox Cable box to AVR with optical or coax audio?

How do I connect the DVR? Same way with HDMI to Cox Cable Box & digital audio cable to AVR?


Stephen Tu, good point, I had not thought that IF I was able to burn a DVD from my DVR HD, it would need to be down converted. Also, I’d need to take the time to eliminate the commercials which is a hassle --if even possible. So, maybe I will just buy a DVR. I need to Check with Cox to see the difference between one I purchase vs. The one they rent you.

Steve

 

[Stephen Tu]

For cable, the only one you can purchase is from Tivo; you can't buy one from the cable company. It'll cost ~$199 (refurbished) + $399 lifetime sub, a bit more for new one, and possibly a couple bucks a month for Cablecard rental. Cable rental rates vary and increase over time, in my area it's up to $16/month. So it takes a bit over 3 years to reach the breakeven point. Although in theory it's less than that since even if you use it less than that amount of time, if you own it you can sell it and get a lot of the subscription value back, while rentals have to be returned. I think buying is much better if you value ability to add storage, much better software, and will make use of the network features for stuff like Netflix downloads and video/photo/MP3 transfers to/from a PC.

 

[King Ghidora]

First I'd like to apologize to Stephen for mistaking what his post was about. Sorry Stephen.


I believe what I said was you couldn't pause Tivo for 2 hours. You know it's a symptom of paranoia to believe yourself to be far superior in intelligence to others. What kind of moron doesn't know you can pause Tivo? But the real question is what kind of person thinks someone else is that big of a moron?

You insinuate that I took the word of a salesman then you insinuate I'm so stupid that I don't know you can pause Tivo. The truth is you mis-read my post. What I said was you can't pause Tivo and come back 2 hours later and pick up where you left off. Doesn't that make you the one who made the mental error?

And if you think Tivo is better than a Dish DVR you just aren't paying attention. First let's start with the price. It's far more expensive for Tivo and you get fewer options. That should be enough but there's more. Tivo (last I heard anyway) is limited to half an hour of recorded programing unless you tell it to record more. Dish's DVR will record for two hours instead of just 30 minutes. Then there's the fact that Dish's DVR is tied in to their program guide allowing you to search for programs and set a timer to record them all at once instead of trying to get two different devices to work together.

I could go on but these proofs should be sufficient. Yes I failed to notice that Stephen was responding to the OP. That's likely because the thread had been hijacked and other questions were being discussed. I made a mistake there. I'm not perfect. But neither are you. You made a glaring mistake and you were insulting about pointing out the mistake I made. That's far worse than a mere mistake IMO. Being rude is never a good thing but so many people get hung up on trying to be Mr. I'm Smarter Than You and they think they can put down others because of it. Well this isn't an episode of Sienfeld. You aren't on any sitcom where the star gets to insult others for fun. This is real life and you should learn to be polite.

 

[Stephen Tu]

Dish vs. Tivo. It's kind of unfair to directly compare since one is satellite only while the other is cable only. So ton of other factors to consider.

Pausing for 2 hours as the superiority argument is also rather silly. The live TV buffer length is just a design decision. So what if you can pause the live buffer for 2 hrs v. 30 min? If I wanted to watch the show later, why wouldn't I just hit "record" instead of "pause". Then it wouldn't matter if the show was longer than 2 hrs, or if I happened to go out for 4 hrs instead of 2, I'd have the show when I get back. And it'd warn me if I already had recordings set that would conflict in that time. Does it make more sense to record randomly the last channel tuned to for 2 hrs, or go out and record "suggestions" via some algorithm if the recorder isn't in use?

TivoHD has integrated guide also, and is a single device, there's no "trying to get two different devices" working together. It's not like we are talking about equipment from 9 years ago, when hooking standalone Tivo to standalone sat receivers. Now it's integrated cable DVR vs. integrated satellite DVR. Even back then on the separate devices all you had to do was search on the Tivo and set a timer to record, it controlled the satellite receiver automatically via IR/serial and there really wasn't any hassle. The advantage of the integrated device wasn't really ease of use, it was AV quality omitting reencoding, and making dual tuner easier.

Tivo's search is fairly powerful these days, with boolean operators, required/optional/forbidden keywords, I doubt Dish has fully caught up on that front yet, although it has in others I'll grant.

 

[RAF]

Joseph,

If you haven't seen the Dish Vip series of HD DVRs (the ViP622 and the Vip722) then you are not really making a fair comparison between Tivo and Dish HD DVRs. I use Dish HD DVRs and my son has a cable-based Tivo. They both offer full functionality but I give the overall nod in flexibility to the Dish units (and not just because I own those). The 722 is the finest unit that I've owned and I'm looking forward to the new Dish Vip 922 when it comes out in a month or two with Slingbox incorporated into it (Echostar purchased slingbox). There's a reason that the 722 has been called the best HD DVR by numerous agencies.

Speaking of which - several years ago Tivo sued Dish (successfully) regarding patent infringement. They wouldn't have wasted their time if the suit was frivolous and the fact that TiVo won shows that there was some merit there. To me that says more than any pissing match. Tivo certainly must think that Dish DVRs are similar enough to TiVos to make a valid case. However I'm not concerned about my 622s and 722s going dark anytime soon. The appeals will take a decade or more and by that time most of us will have DVRs incorporated into our media servers for whole house distribution and programming. Be on the look out for Windows 7. One of the partners for the new OS is Echostar and it will support all the functions (and then some) of current HD DVRs on a much larger and flexible scale within the framework of a wired and wireless media server in a single location. The only limitation on the number of shows you can simultaneously record will depend on the number of slots you devote to "tuner" cards and the size of your storage modules.

And Charley Ergen (CEO of Echostar) is always looking for ways to become more of a conglomerate. His purchase of Slingbox was done with that in mind and some people have offered the opinion that if Tivo prevails in their appeals of the copyright lawsuit Charley will just buy TiVo which could use the cash influx. Although that might be a frivolous opinion, sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. Look what he's doing in an attempt to acquire Sirius/XM (although his motives aren't completely clear yet on that score.)

We now return you to your regular programming in this thread....