Receiver as a pre/pro

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Jason Kass, Jul 9, 2002.

  1. Jason Kass

    Jason Kass Agent

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    Hi,
    Is a receiver that is used like a pre/pro( separate amps) as good as a pre/pro/amp? ie does it count as separates?
    Thanks,
    Jason
     
  2. Mike Bledsoe

    Mike Bledsoe Stunt Coordinator

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    Dear Jason

    Yes a receiver that you use a pre/pro that is connected to a power amp is considered separates. About the question would it be as good as a regular pre/pro probably not however some receivers have very good per amp sections that come pretty close to being as good as a stand alone pre/pro for instance the Denon AVR 3802 which I use to power a Denon POA 5200 which is a two channel dual mono block, which in turn powers my two front channels, leaves
    me in complete ecstasy with draw dropping pleasure. it is a great improvement over the earlier AVR 3300 that it replaced and that model was no slouch either
     
  3. JackS

    JackS Supporting Actor

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    IMO, true seperates would always be perfered, but having owned seperates in the past and a receiver at present, the difference may be little or none depending on the receiver. If you want to try the receiver route, look for the ones that have the ability to completly shut down all video functions during two channel playback. Also, a direct analog pass-through to give you the bast chance at success using a receiver as a preamp.
     
  4. Brian Corr

    Brian Corr Supporting Actor

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    I'd say that if using a good receiver as a pre/pro was an "8", then adding a separate pre/pro might range anywhere from 8-9 depending on the processor.
     
  5. Jason Kass

    Jason Kass Agent

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    Thanks All,
    I WAS going to wait for the 950 (yeah right) but am considering the Denon 3802 with Citation 7.1 for the front towers and the rear surrounds.
    Does it seem like a plan? Is there anything anyone does NOT like about the 3802?
    Thanks,
    Jason
     
  6. John Royster

    John Royster Screenwriter

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    Crossover doesn't go below 80 Hz.
    Can't switch change video out sources with remote.
    Speaker binding post could be better and not so bunched up.
    Needs more optical and digital inputs
    Needs more video/audio inputs.

    That's really all I can complain about.
     
  7. Brian Corr

    Brian Corr Supporting Actor

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    The 3803 will be out in Oct but I don't remember what changed.
     
  8. Chuck Kent

    Chuck Kent Supporting Actor

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    Jason: I heartily recommend the 3802 as a pre-pro! I've used receivers as pre-pros for several years and been very pleased. (Right now, I have a Denon 3802 sitting in the rack.) Until the appearance of the Outlaw 950, there just wasn't anything (meaning separate pre-pro) that came close to the capabilities of a good $1000 receiver.
    John: The 3802 supports a remote control video select code. The only problem is that the remote that packed with it doesn't generate the code. If you are willing to spend approx. $20 or so, you can buy a One For All remote (such as the model 8811 or one of the Radio Shack versions) and teach the code to your Denon remote.
    This web addy shows the codes you need to generate the video select code. (If you're not familiar with OFA remotes, go to the home page of this site and do a bit of reading. They are really cool!)http://www.hifi-remote.com/codes2/amp_0004.shtml
     
  9. Angelo_Petralba

    Angelo_Petralba Second Unit

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    Jason-

    Another good candidate for this situation would be the Sony STR-DA5ES. It has TONS of options AND the BASS MANAGEMENT is exceptional for this unit. It costs about the same as the Denon 3802. The HT performance on this unit is ALSO VERY CAPABLE. I love my set-up with only a Parasound 855 amp.

    Good Luck!
    Angelo
     
  10. Paul Clarke

    Paul Clarke Supporting Actor

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    Hey Angelo,
    I remember your review back in April on the DA5ES after you got it set up. But I don't remember seeing anything similar after your 855A was recently put into the mix. Considering the power rating of the Sony, I'm curious about your level of satisfaction with things now. Lord knows I've posted enough on my 510/855A combo. Howsabout a few details please? [​IMG]
     
  11. Yoon Lee

    Yoon Lee Stunt Coordinator

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    Nobody has an issue on sound quality with 3802 being used as pre/pro? So, there won't be a dramatic sound improvement even if we switch it to Outlaw 950 or Rotel 1066? If it's just matter of convenience and having more inputs and outputs, then I don't see much reason for separates myself.
     
  12. Angelo_Petralba

    Angelo_Petralba Second Unit

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    Paul-
    I did a MINI review in June. Here is the link to my review.
    CLICK HERE to view the whole thread or I will just go ahead and Quote it here.
     
  13. Paul Clarke

    Paul Clarke Supporting Actor

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    Angelo,

    Thanks a bunch. Don't know how I missed that since I was in that thread. Must've been the time lag.
     
  14. Matt Jesty

    Matt Jesty Second Unit

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    Yoon,
    I seem to be in the minority here (on this site) in regards to the belief that most rcvrs mnfgrs do not put much in the way of quality parts, construction, or engineering into their pre-out sections. This is mostly due to the fact that an amazingly small percentage of consumers will ever use it...If you look at the 3802 as an example of where the money is spent on that unit vs. a rarely used "feature" it shouldn't be suprising that it doesn't have the same pre-out section as their old AVP8000(?).
    It is the sound that comes out of the back of that pre-out section that your seperate amp is AMPLIFYING ! A little extra noise there / a little cheaper sound there will make quite a differance...
    I like using the rcvr as an interim step to seperates, but no one with good ears and the money to buy a dedicated pre-pro would use most rcvrs that way for long .
    YET, THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION..the fact that I work in the industry and have found that this opinion is shared by many in the consumer electronics industry should not ruffle any feathers...YMMV
    Try looking at other HI-FI sites asking people who have stepped-up what they noticed...[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  15. AntonS

    AntonS Stunt Coordinator

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  16. Brian Corr

    Brian Corr Supporting Actor

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    Matt,
    I don't think people will argue that the parts going into a 3802 may be of a lower quality than the parts going into a Lexicon MC-12.
    My feeling is that once you reach the point of a 3802, you are getting pretty good performance. Stepping up to a separate processor isn't going to yield "huge" improvements. The improvements are more subtle. Like having sex with a condom and without a condom! (It's all still pretty good though!) [​IMG]
    Here's my take on why people feel differently about the differences in equipment. Alot of it has to do with an individuals perception and emotions. People get emotional when talking about something they work at or love to play at.
    Take Outlaw stating that the 950 would sound better than processors costing 3-5 times as much. IMHO, It's marketing to feed on hype and emotions.
    I find that people that are in the business or are devoted to the "hobby" will be more critical so small differences become larger. They get emotional and might exxagerate a just a little bit. Not saying anyone here does, but people I know and work with occasionally do. (even me)
    Since there is no accepted standard of what "sound" is correct, it all has to be based on peoples descriptions and people feel differently so the descriptions will range from "minor" to "huge".
    I do some work in HT and find that when I take a break from it, my feelings and observations regarding equipment change.
    Not meaning to argue with you, just stating another opinion. [​IMG]
     
  17. Paul Clarke

    Paul Clarke Supporting Actor

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    "I think this is erroneous assumption. The pre-outs (pre-amps) are used all the time, regardless what are they feeding - internal amps or external amps. If external amps are used, pre-amp outputs are just routed to the pre-out connectors, either electronically or manually. I'm not sure how is it done on Denons, but on H/K units same pre-outs are used for internal and external amps by just jumpering them in the back. So there is no reason to believe that the quality of pre-amps in receivers is compromised."

    Anton wrote it...
    I read it...
    and I have to agree.
     
  18. John Royster

    John Royster Screenwriter

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    Listen and decide. In general a receiver used as a pre-amp is fine, not as good as a dedicated pre-amp however. Keep in mind I say in general.

    The pre-amp in my 3802 is OK. just OK. does not hold a candle to my 8 year old adcom pre-amp.
     
  19. RichardMA

    RichardMA Second Unit

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  20. Martice

    Martice Screenwriter

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    If we think in terms of synergy, trying to hear differences depends on the rest of your system. If you had a Krell 2-channel amp and had entry level speakers, I think it's fair to say that you probably are not hearing the most that the amp has to offer. If you ran a Proceed Pre/pro with your Krell amp and through those same entry level speakers, your pre/pro couldn't help much in terms of determining the sound of your system. If you had speakers that were on the same level of performance as the Proceed and the Krell but you had a CD player with entry level DAC's then your listening sessions would probably be very painful experiences and not a true reflection of what the rest of your system is capable of revealing to your ears.

    Is the Denon a good performer when asked to handle the job of pre/pro? It really depends on what it's mated with more than anything as well as your source material. Some people may find that it doesn't hurt their system at all and they love it. Some may feel that it puts a veil over the music and seems dry and sterile with a skinny sound stage. Among the many of different variables that may effect the sound of your system, the revealing capabilities of your overall system is the ultimate gauge with YOUR ears being the final test.

    Personally, I haven't liked receivers as pre/pro and I don't like dedicated pre/pro's as 2-channel preamps. I've owned enough of all of the above and although some components may effect the overall sound more than others I've noticed a constant and that is music sounds nice when using a receiver or pre/pro in my setups but GOOD 2-channel preamps sound better and no preamp sounds the best.

    Generally speaking, any preamp should do one of 2 things and that's effect the sound or not effect the sound. How you like your preamp to effect your system and to what degree is up to you and your EARS.
     

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