rear surrounds question Paradigm ADP170?

Discussion in 'Speakers & Subwoofers' started by craig_curtis, Jan 25, 2004.

  1. craig_curtis

    craig_curtis Stunt Coordinator

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    I am setting up my home theater in the basement. The layout allows for the couch to fit into into a nook with a little ledge behind the couch that is perfect for rear speakers. (i wish I could post a picture of the layout). The nook is just wide enough to fit the couch, plus my sub next to the couch. I have an extra center channel speaker, so I was thinking of use it as the rear center (although i've read that this isn't usually the best option).

    I have Paradigm Titans currently for the mains, and the Paradigm center 170 for front center (matches). I was planning on using the titans as the rear surrounds and upgrading the main to something else like the Paradigm Esprit or Phantom (also in same line as the titan).

    http://www.paradigm.com/Website/Site...manceSpecs.htm

    Question is this: should I
    a) keep Titans as mains, and get the paradigm ADP170 (dipole?) for rear surrounds?
    b) keep to current plan?
    c) move Titans to rear and get an ADP 170 for rear center?

    i was thinking of the ADP's since the walls are so close to the sides of the couch, and thought it might help wth spacial/imaging since the speakers are practically sitting on the corners of the couch.

    this is almost exclusively for movies...

    thanks!
     
  2. craig_curtis

    craig_curtis Stunt Coordinator

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    here's a layout...



    [​IMG]
     
  3. Stephen Weller

    Stephen Weller Stunt Coordinator

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    Have you tested this setup yet? I would *think* that even after calibration that your perception of the fronts will be overwhelmed by your proximity to the rears.

    How far off the floor is the shelf? The general recommendation is that the surrounds be 2-3 feet above your head. After a lot of experimenting, I found the best place for mine were on their backs, on the floor. And it worked, but I didn't like them between the couch and the wall. Too directional. So I moved them farther apart. Perfect!

    Can you move the couch forward? The "rule of thumb" is that the mains be the same distance apart as you will be sitting from the line they are on. IOW - if the mains are in line with the TV, and you are 6 feet from the TV, the mains should be 6 feet apart. Follow? You may have already heard this, but the [RANT]ideal[/RANT] situation is to have all the speakers (except the sub) equal distance in a circle around your listening spot.

    The left main is going to reflect off that left wall and skew the left channel significantly - relative to the right. Move the mains inward?

    Can't comment on the use of a center for the CR. If it matches the timber of the rest of your system, it *should* work. But again, I think it'll overwhelm your perception of the fronts.

    If you don't already have one, get a sound meter. I recommend an analog because it's easier for me to fine tune with. But I've heard the digital is just as easy to work with.
     
  4. craig_curtis

    craig_curtis Stunt Coordinator

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    No, i haven't tested it out yet. The contractors are just now finishing sanding the sheetrock. the layout i have is the best i could do with the space. i wish there was more room. unfortunately, i don't thinik i can really move the couch forward, unless i want to be sitting on top of the TV. the whole space is only 12 feet deep, so by the time you get a 2 foot deep tv and a 3 foot couch, there's only 7 feet from your head to the screen.

    the shelf is 36 inches high (just over the back of most couches). i also thought about putting the rears on the shelf and firing them toward the ceiling. maybe that would work better? I had them put that shelf there (its more like a hollow box really) so i wouldn't have to put the rears on the floor.

    i see what you mean about the left main. I just read in Home Theater Magazine (I think thats it) about putting foamcore or sound proofing on the walls to minimize reflections. maybe that is also an option. well, a combination or the 2. like i said i don't think i have much room to work with.

    my receiver is a Denon 1803. going to be getting a new TV at some point soon. which is another topic in itself. don't have a SPL meter yet but that is also on to-do, as well as a full calibration.
     
  5. Stephen Weller

    Stephen Weller Stunt Coordinator

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    I'd say you're on track. It sounds like you've been doing your ...homework. (groan)

    One of the beauties of this endeavor is the experimentation. Endless possibilities. Once you get it up and running, I'm sure you'll find something that pleases you. Keep in mind, that's really all that matters. And don't be afraid to try something unconventional. "We don't know 1/10 of 1% about nothin'." (Can't remember who said that. [​IMG] ) I'd never have thought of putting my rears on the floor until I saw it on the Dolby website.
     
  6. craig_curtis

    craig_curtis Stunt Coordinator

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    thanks.. hopefully the virgin test run will be really soon!
     
  7. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    With that setup, I would not use ADPs. You could put them at an angle in the corner to reflect the sound, but with them facing the side wall, I don't think they will sound correct. Proximity to the rears should not be a problem with calibration.

    You can toe the left main to reduce the first reflection, as well as use some type of damper.

    I used a CC170 as a rear center and there was no problem with it. I don't see why it would be an issue. Have you inquired about buying a single ADP170? My guess is you won't be able to.

    If you are looking at the Esprit or Phantom, you might as well move to the Monitor line and move your current setup to the rear. The Monitor line is a noticable step up in terms of performance, IMO. I am still using Titans as my surrounds, and they work great.
     
  8. Owen Bartley

    Owen Bartley Second Unit

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    I think what I would do in your situation is ignore the ADPs (pretty expensive, and may not sound great up close like that), pick up a pair of Phantoms for your mains (a friend of mine just got these and they're very nice), and move the titans to the rear shelf, facing up. As long as they aren't rear ported, I can't remember. If they are, you can make some kind of stands to lift them up a few inches for the ports to breathe or try wall mounting them up high in the same area. Should work out great!
     
  9. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    Atoms and Titans are both rear ported. You can plug them though, no need to make stands. Pointing them up isn't going to buy you much, since the first reflections from the nearby walls will still be going right to your ears, at that height. You may want to consider pulling the couch out a foot or so.
     
  10. craig_curtis

    craig_curtis Stunt Coordinator

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    but is the Monitor line sonically matched to the performance line (titan, atom, etc).

    I would have thought that elevating the titans to give some clearance for the port would add some richness to the sound (instead of plugging the port)
     
  11. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    It won't matter, the fronts and rears do not need to be identically matched because the surrounds are working a lot less, and the front stage will be playing the vast majority of your sound. Perfectly matching fronts and rears is obviously better, but the timbre match between the Performance and Monitor lines is pretty good. I had Monitor 5s and a CC370 up front with Titans and a CC170 out back and it worked perfectly, even with SACD.

    With the Titan in close proximity to a corner, raising them will not add richness, it will help prevent boominess, a real possibility with this type of placement. IMO, you loose some low end extension when plugging the ports, but it won't matter so much with surrounds, with them crossed over at 80-100Hz.
     
  12. craig_curtis

    craig_curtis Stunt Coordinator

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    so i should look into dedicated crossovers? or will my denon 1803 take care of it?

    i see what you mean about the surrounds anyway, esp. since the sub is going to be right next to the couch. it will probably overrun them anyway. but if i had monitor mains, is the sound close enough to keep from having to replace the cc170 i have in the front center? I don't have the $ to replace the whole speaker system. I haven't really started searching for the esprits or phantoms, so i'm not even sure how much they will cost...

    this is probably jumping the gun a little, but how do you calibrate with the rearrs pointed at the ceiling?

    and for the rear center, for the moment its a marantz center channel that my father in law gave me.. so that will need to be replaced since it sounds alot brighter than the paradigms.
     
  13. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    Your 1803 will take care of the x-over.

    Before I moved to the 370, I was using the 170 up front with Mini Monitors, and it while I could hear a difference, it was not so bad that I could not live with it until I could afford to upgrade. The difference between the Performance and Monitor is a bit less than the difference between the Monitor and Studio series. If your dealer offers a "trade up" policy, as many do, you could go with all Performance line now and trade up some or all of them down the road. Just a thought.

    Regardless of where the speakers are aimed, calibration method will be the same.
     
  14. craig_curtis

    craig_curtis Stunt Coordinator

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    so when i calibrate it, will i set up the receiver as the surrounds being 1 foot away or as them being 8 feet away (speaker to ceiling and back down to listening position) - that is assuming thespeakers are firing up.

    thanks for the idea about trade ups. most likely i will be getting them from 6Ave electronics here in jersey, since they are the closest ones to me that offer paradigms... I'll have to see if it is something they offer
     
  15. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    Calibrate them using the approximate distance from the speaker to your ears in your listening position(s), even with them firing up, then tweak to your liking.
     

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