Rear Center, Direct radiating or Bipole/Dipole?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Craig Ball, Oct 28, 2001.

  1. Craig Ball

    Craig Ball Second Unit

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    Who's using what? Any advantage over one or the other? My system consist of Klipsch KLF-30 Mains, Klipsch KLF-C7 Center, and KSP-S6 side surrounds. So what would you reccomened? Pair of KSP-S6 in the rear or one KLF-C7.
    All opinions appreciated.
    Thanks
    Craig
     
  2. Craig Ball

    Craig Ball Second Unit

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    Bump
     
  3. Russell _T

    Russell _T Supporting Actor

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    I'm faced with the same decision. If you were to use two speakers and had enclosed walls to reflect the sound, I would go with the dipoles, but I'm considering the same setup you are with one center rear, so I think I will use another Diva C3 exactly like my front center because mine needs to sit on a low wall. The horizontal configuration seems more pleasing and will hopefully sound great.
    Russ
     
  4. Michael Lee

    Michael Lee Supporting Actor

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    I am using what is left over from other systems. I have Atlantic Tech 454e SRs as dipolar surrounds (with matching 450 components for mains and center) and using Atlantic Tech 271 LR direct radiating for rears. I find this to be very satisfying for HT. A bonus is that I use the direct radiating rears for multichannel music, such as DVD-Audio and SACD, instead of my dipolar surrounds. This is definitely preferred and a vast improvement.
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  5. Sean-D

    Sean-D Agent

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    Hello Craig,
    This is a debate that I have with other installers all the time. I'd say it's about 65-35 in favor or the dipole solution. This has lead to widespread confusion in the consumer marketplace. [​IMG]
    All rear-center surround channel formats except one are matrixed decoded. That means that one or more of the decoded channels that you are hearing was artificial created (synthesized) by your processor and is not directly extracted from the disc's soundtrack. They use this technique to "fill" a part of your systems overall soundfield to create a more 360 degree sense of envelopment. The problem though is not the goal, it's the execution. I firmly believe that that all 6.1 and 7.1 matrixed surround formats should always use dipolar radiating speakers to create a wide spacious, enveloping soundstage. I take my cue from the past philosophy of matrixed decoding.(Dolby Pro Logic Surround format forward)
    Matrixed Surround Formats [​IMG]Dolby Surround,Dolby Pro Logic,Dolby Pro Logic II,Dolby Digital Surround-EX,DTS-ES,Logic-7,Trifield,etc...)
    Every one of these surround formats are matrixed in all processors all the time. (never discreet)
    They recommend (not require) the use of one or more dipolar/bipolar radiating speakers for rear-channel surround. In all discreet surround formats it is again recommended (not required) to use direct radiating speakers. There are several acoustical reasons for this. They allow the choice as a compromise to the consumer for simple economic reasons. Sell your idea or product to the widest audience possible. Some people have direct radiating speakers all the way around, but most people use dipole/bipole speakers in the rear surround channels. Think about that for a minute, before Dolby Digital(discreet 5.1) came along, there was no controversy about what speakers to use. You didn't have a choice. Dolby Pro Logic(matrixed)was the undisputed king of surround formats and it called for dipolar/bipolar surrounds only. Since we seem to have taken a step back from truly discreet surround formats(Dolby Digital 5.1 & DTS 5.1) we seemed to have re-opened that can of worms one more time.
    I think most people don't understand that there is a significant difference between discreet and matrixed surround sound formats. They require a different setup based on surround mix that you are trying to decode. If you can't afford to buy both and switch between both dipolar and direct radiating, I would suggest that you go with dipolar because it allows you to decode older dolby surround soundtracks off of tapes, laserdiscs and most importantly television. Almost all of the shows on television are mono, stereo, or dolby surround(matrixed) encoded. I don't belive that this is going to change for very long time.
    I don't think that there should be any confusion about this decision. Decode any rear matrixed channels with dipolar surrounds and decode all discreet channels with direct radiators.(My opinion)
    Craig, decide what compromise best fits your viewing habits. If you watch more than 75% of any one particular surround format I think your decision will a simple one.
    Just my .02 cents.
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    Sean-D.
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    [Edited last by Sean-D on October 28, 2001 at 11:30 AM]
     
  6. Craig Ball

    Craig Ball Second Unit

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    WOW, Great reply Sean-D thanks, I have a couple more ? for you though. Have you ever heard of Klipsch Wide Dispersion speakers? Like the KSP-S6 Klipsch say these aren't dipole or bipole they call there's (WDST) wide dispersion, they say there the best of both, what do you think? Second ? I have is how can i run two rear speaks off of one channel? I have two Acurus 200x3 amps and want to use the one remaining channel to run both rear KSP-S6 speaks if thats the way i go.
    Thanks Again
    Craig
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  7. Paul_R_M

    Paul_R_M Auditioning

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    Much depends on the number of speakers you are using to reproduce the soundfield. Remember that in cinemas, arrays of speakers make up the side and rear soundfields. If you are using 1 speaker per channel, I would recommend diffuse speakers (dipole or bipoles). If you have the luxury of using 2 rear surround speakers, then direct radiators will do a good job if you are in the sweet spot.
    My opinion is that the bandwidth of the surround speaker is more important than the radiating pattern. With Dolby Stereo matrixed info, surrounds did not have much energy below 125 Hz and above 7500 Hz. With Dolby Digital and DTS sources, 20-20 kHz bandwidth is the norm. You will find many older diffuse surround speakers to not have sufficient HF response to make them credible for DD/DTS.
     
  8. DanSt

    DanSt Stunt Coordinator

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    Hey Craig!
    I have Klipsch RS-7's for my sides and rears of my EX setup. They are also WDST speakers. Before these I had dipole speakers and my friend has bipoles now. I have to say that I like the Klipsch approach the best. They are kind of the best of both worlds. I don't think you will be dissapointed if you use the same type of speaker for your rears also.
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  9. Michael Lee

    Michael Lee Supporting Actor

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    Sean-
    There is one thing I would like to ask your opinion of on this. Older surround mixes via Dolby ProLogic were matrixing a limited bandwidth surround channel that played the same on the left and right rears. It would make sense to send this out in a diffuse fashion because it was already so limited. But since discrete surrounds were introduced, I think they play a more significant role in newer audio tracks.
    The rear center channel is indeed matrixed, but it is the same theories as the center front channel..which I think is full bandwidth. I thought that the advantage of true 5.1 was to have real directionality (is that a word?).
    I am not sure if I prefer dipolar or direct radiating surrounds yet, but I have heard the argument that using dipolars on a discrete channel smears the sound. This can be interpreted as a good thing or a bad thing.
    Thanks for yours or anyone elses' thoughts.
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  10. Russell _T

    Russell _T Supporting Actor

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    That was my point. Using dipoles for music will "smear" or muddy the sound (if using surround formats), and dipoles will only function properly if set up in a room that can accomodate them. Many open floor plans are not the best for dipoles while directs will do nicely for HT especially if you use a center surround and they will be preferable for music. My .02 which is all it's worth. As is always mentioned in speaker debates, ultimately you will have to decide for yourself as the the decision is very subjective.
    Russ
     

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