RE-EQ and Surround

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Jay_Leonard, Sep 24, 2002.

  1. Jay_Leonard

    Jay_Leonard Stunt Coordinator

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    I wonder if any of you have noticed a relationship between RE-EQ and the imaging/presence quality ( Perhaps effectiveness is a better word) of Surround effects.

    I happen to have an Onkyo 787, but I wanted to query the forum to see if any of you have found a similar relationship.

    I am sure I am hearing what I am hearing I am just not sure what the actual effect is:

    I think that, either I am hearing less effect because my hearing is more attuned to frequencys that are being turned down in the RE-EQ process, or there is some kind of DSP delay that changes the timing just enough to eliminate the presence. I do not think that the timing would have to be off by more than a milisecond or 2 to cause presence issues.

    Inquiring minds want to know.

    J
     
  2. Joe Barefoot

    Joe Barefoot Stunt Coordinator

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    Jay,

    Just a shot in the dark, but are you turning the re-eq only off and on? Or, are you turning THX processing off and on? If it's the THX that you're messing with, then what you are probably hearing is the de-correlation of the surrounds, rather than the re-eq.

    Did I misunderstand your question....are you hearing more effective surround with re-eq on or off?
     
  3. Jay_Leonard

    Jay_Leonard Stunt Coordinator

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    I am only turning off the RE-EQ, specifically the THX RE-EQ. I am not changing volumes, delays, or any of the other basic settings.

    The Surround is just as audible but is decidedly more effective when RE-EQ is off.

    That the surround is just as audible leads me to think that there is a processing delay of some kind that prevents the correct timing of the delay function.

    Again it may just be that a lot of the surround information is in the frequency range that is being affected by the RE-EQ and therefore does not have as much presence.

    Really though I believe it is a timing thing. When you get the system set up just right there is a detuning presence that adds significant depth to a surround track. And I just loose that when the RE_EQ is on. I suppose I could test it be increasing the preset speaker distances for the rears effectively shortening the delay with the RE-EQ on to find out. The problem with that is that by the time I change all the settings the Ear memory would be gone.

    J
     
  4. Joe Barefoot

    Joe Barefoot Stunt Coordinator

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    OK...how about this:

    With re-eq on, sounds are tilted to be a little more bassy (word?). So you get more crossed over to your sub for a given sound. You now have less directional information from your surrounds. Or, because the sound is shifted to a lower frequency with re-eq, there are fewer directional ques in the surrounds. I don't know if this is true, I'm just thinking out loud.

    Have you tried running your surrounds 1-2 dB hot with re-eq? That is what I do and it works for MY preference.

    As for the delay, there is not a way to adjust your delay in real time on your pre-pro?
     
  5. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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    The RE-Eq feature is "compensation" feature for the smaller size of HT's as oppose the size of commercial theaters and dubbing/mixing stages.There are quiet a few DVDs out there that was remixed for home use and don't need such "compensation".[See BladeII]
    The problem is that it is hard to know which film has been "treated" like that[except for most of New Line's see MiCasa studio's site for their list].
    The fact the you dislike the RE-EQ's effect could be, do to the fact that you watched one of those movies with "nearfield' mix on it, or maybe your configuration/positioning of your speakers are somewhat differen,t then THX sees fit?
    Check out THX's site for info n that.
     
  6. Jay_Leonard

    Jay_Leonard Stunt Coordinator

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    Perhaps I was not clear.

    I understand what the RE-EQ does, or is supposed to do. I think that on my receiver it is possible that the timing, delay, of the rears is affected by the RE-EQ. I wonder if anyone else has had a similar experience.

    That I like one mix or the other is beside the point. I was hoping for some insight to a phenomenon I encountered.

    There is an interesting theme that runs thru most of these threads, in that people tend not to read the entire question and assume that the writer is doing something wrong.

    J
     
  7. RichardMA

    RichardMA Second Unit

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    The properly recorded DVD soundtracks today do
    not need re-eq at all. Only with certain older
    movie soundtracks does it come in handy to tame
    the edginess.
     
  8. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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  9. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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  10. Jay_Leonard

    Jay_Leonard Stunt Coordinator

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    Louis,


     
  11. Joe Barefoot

    Joe Barefoot Stunt Coordinator

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    Jay,
    Firstly, I believe I have given you due credit for your knowledge. I think your understanding was demonstrated by the nature of your first question.
    If you can't test your theory in real time by changing delays, I agree, it will be difficult to know for sure. I could do it for you on my Lex, but we have different ears. Is there a shop or a friend that has a pre-pro that has a real time delay change adjustment that you could borrow? But on a different pre-pro, the "altered delay" may not be there.
    I still think you are on the wrong track though. As you said, re-eq SHOULDN'T effect the delay. I still believe it is simply a function of the slightly lessened directional ques when re-eq is on.
    Because the cues are not eliminated, only lessened, those can be brought back up to snuff by increasing the volume of the surrounds. Yea, yea, I know...balance and everything...I'm anal too.
    My prior pre-pro didn't have re-eq. I do like it a lot on my system so I use it all the time. I have noticed that after calibrating my speakers, I do add a couple of dB's to the surrounds to get what is a more satisfying sound to my ears. To me, the "balance" was not effected negatively. I did not do this when I didn't have re-eq. Granted, that may be personal preference, but it may also be exactly what you are talking about too.
    I know it sounds simplistic...."if your surrounds are not doing what you expect, turn them up". I'll bet you can do that in real time. I know you are not talking about a large difference, so 1-2 dB may make all the difference.
    Let me put it like this to make it more palatable.. "Try re-adding the directional ques to the surrounds that were taken out by re-eq". [​IMG]
    Good discussion! It also may be that your ears are just hearing your surrounds a little too fast [​IMG] .
     
  12. Jay_Leonard

    Jay_Leonard Stunt Coordinator

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    Joe,
    Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, [​IMG]
     
  13. Joe Barefoot

    Joe Barefoot Stunt Coordinator

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    "Check this though, do you think that the "Weekening" would cause the reduction of the sense of motion? in other words I can still hear the sound from the rears(Ques) but it seems less connected/fluid the illusion of motion from back to front, front to back seems less convincing."

    I still think that can be explained by surround volume. As a sound travels from front to rear, lets say "F" and "R", there is a taper from the sound from F and an increase in sound from R, so there is an FR mix, for lack of a better term. This FR period happens until the sound is completely R. If the surround volume is slightly lower, the F portion of the FR period will predominate longer than it should...say a couple of ms. When the surrounds take over and predominate the FR period, there will be less time for the surrounds to predominate. This may be perceived as a less fluid/connected traveling of sound from front to rear.

    It may be that your room/speaker dynamics cause this to be more pronounced at the lower frequency, re-eq setting. The ques are still there, just lower frequency, and possibly lower spl because of your room/speaker combination.

    Come on, give those surround a bump and let's see what happens.
     
  14. Jeff Kohn

    Jeff Kohn Supporting Actor

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    I've noticed that applying Re-EQ (actually Cinema-EQ on my Rotel 1066) will take the "air" out of the sound, definitely weakening the soundstange. You can hear this same effect on 2-channel stereo music by switching the EQ on-and-off (assuming your processor allows you to apply EQ to 2-channel, mine does).

    So I don't think it's a timing delay, it's just that unless the track really needs Re-EQ, you're taking away treble info that is supposed to be there and most certainly effects the overall sound.

    In fact, because of this effect, I no longer use Cinema-EQ even on DVD's that might benefit from it. Instead, I'll back off the treble control a notch, which seems to help tame the brightness but without changing the sound as much as Cinema-EQ does. I find that Cinema-EQ affects the sound too much, I would only consider using it on the brightest of movie soundtracks. Of course, not all manufacturers implement this feature in exactly the same way, the effects of THX Re-EQ could be slightly different.
     
  15. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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  16. Jeff Kohn

    Jeff Kohn Supporting Actor

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  17. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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  18. Jeff Kohn

    Jeff Kohn Supporting Actor

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    I believe the whole point of Re-EQ and other similar implementations was to remove the excess brightness in some DVD's resulting from the fact that those DVD's use the original theatrical soundtrack, which has the X-Curve applied for proper playback in a theater. So if you're trying to remove the X-Curve, I would think it's relevent.
     
  19. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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    Exactly!
    So the point is RE-EQ which was created for home use,to deal with the X curce.Think of it as the home "version" of the X curve.
     

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