Questions from someone just getting into music with his home theater (1 Viewer)

[Steve_AS]

Steve provided some excellent info above, Sam, but he was incorrect on a couple of points. Obviously, you don't have the ability to set speakers to "large" or "small" via your receiver with SACD signals, as neither SACD nor DVD-A allow for a digital output into your receiver for bass management. However, if you incorrectly hook a DVD-A or SACD player to "analog" inputs that actually redigitize the signal (the "non analog bypass" type), then you will be able to use the "large" or "small" settings, but at the expense of all the added resolution that DVD-A and SACD provide you.

Which is what I said! What were the couple of points that you thought were in error?

 

[Steve_AS]

I also interpret this to mean that my receiver cannot "combine" all multichannel "parts" from just the two analog inputs coming from my SACD stereo player, so that both my front left and front right "picks up" the entire surround that was mastered - correct?

No receiver can do that; you can't start from two channels and recreate the multichannel mix that's on the disc. Your receiver *can* synthesize a 'virtual' multichannel mix from two channles, using DOlby Pro Logic, but that's nto the same multichannel mix that's on the disc. And you can only do that to stuff that's NOT input through the 'Ext In'.

Some *players* can 'combine' a multichannel mix into two channels (it's called downmixing) and output *that* to a receiver, but yours is unlikely to be able to do that for SACD.

 

[Steve_AS]

Am I misusing/underutilizing my equipment in some way?

Any thoughts on why the Aerosmith and BOC SACD's lacked the bass I heard on the other SACD's mentioned above? Could the fact that these two are designated as playable ONLY on SACD players have some effect on reproducing the entire sound spectrum for just two channels (even though each has a stereo mix)?

Yes, if 1) your player is set to default to CD layers when given a hybrid, and 2) your system is somehow set to play CD input only through digital or dedicated analog two-channel inputs. In this case, you'd be getting proper bass managment of CD layer material, but never for SACD material.

 

[Steve_AS]

First, thanks for the response.

You said: "Let me reiterate: an Outlaw ICBM-1 will solve your current bass management issues, and will also solve your future bass management problems should you add a multichannel SACD or DVD-A player."

I don't understand . . . how will the Outlaw "solve" my current problem when I have only a (1) stereo SACD player (Sony's first DVD/SACD combo - ES, BTW), and (2) I am inputting only TWO wires into my "Ext. In." inputs, as you suggested, and thus do NOT have a wire going into the "sub" connector of the 6.1/8/1 Ext. In connections?

First , your problem would be solved far more cheaply simply by using the dedicated two-channel analog inputs, instead of hte 'Ext in' inputs, of your receiver, and setting the receiver bass management appropriately for the two-channel input.

Second, if you DO buy the ICBM, you will run a pair of cables into the ICB, and run *three* cables out: left, right, and subwoofer. You will run these into the matching Ext In jacks of your receiver. The stereo signal will get 'bass managed' in the ICBM and will output as three channels, two stripped of bass, one contining only bass.

Third, if you buy a multichannel player, you don't need to replace your rear speakers. Just make sure the *player* does bass management, as most modern ones do.

 

[Steve_AS]

Sam, though I'm not familiar with that particular player, I am familiar with how such onboard bass management has been implemented thusfar. It ain't a pretty sight (or sound, as it were). Even aside from the "down-rezzing" that may occur, please note that from your description your front speakers are locked on "large". That's fine if you can also reroute the bass that they're not capable of reproducing to your sub, but it doesn't seem to imply that.

Sam, let me weigh in with a contrary view. I think Rich *vastly* overstates the deficiencies of modern uni-player bass management. In my case, even though its crossover point is not adjustable (one thing that ICBM has that players usually don't) , I have no complaints with the *sound* of the Pioneer DV-45a in this regard, and only one small compaint with the *implementation* , in that on certain 4.0 DVD-A discs, it can't do bass management. I have no idea how your Onkyo measures up , but at $800 I'd hope it would! (The Pioneer was a few hundred less than that!)

(I have small speakers all around and a sub; I was under the impression that that's your system config too.)

 

[Rich Malloy]

Sam, I'm glad to hear how great you're finding the Onkyo to be! I'm not familiar with that player, but it sounds just wonderful. And that sounds like a great deal for the ICBM with the cables. I recently purchased a set of the Outlaw PCA cables to try them out (great price!), and I'm very satisfied with them. I prefer them on my system to the more expensive Monsters I was using. I love a great price/performance ratio, particularly for audio gear as one meets the point of diminishing returns rather quickly, and I think the Outlaw cables are great examples of that. I'm gonna try a few more cables in my system, but I think I'll ultimately re-cable the whole thing with the PCAs. When you need this many cables, price is important!

Just to followup a bit on Steve's gargantuan efforts to explain this stuff... yes, I'm very picky! I would never convert a DSD-derived analog signal to PCM for any sort of processing, as this degrades the signal. But I take issue with Steve's assertion that this degradation is "unverified". It's not a theoretical assertion at all, and you can easily setup your system to determine if you can hear for yourself.

Simply hook up your player both ways simultaneously. It'll have to be stereo-only, obviously, as there are no multichannel inputs that allow you to "redigitize" a 6-channel signal. Now put on an SACD (of course, you must select the stereo track, as that's alll the "redigitizing" inputs will allow for) and toggle back and forth on your receiver between both inputs and listen... be sure to level-match so that the volume is as identical as possible.

What are you listening for? Simply put, any "veiling" or sense that one method of hookup is less transparent to the source than the other. Listen for the separation between musicians, the sense of "air" surrounding each sound, the palpable texture of the timbres of the various instruments. Does that saxophone perhaps sound more textured via the analog inputs, like fine sandpaper perhaps, and more "smoothed over" and lacking in immediacy through the processed inputs? Does the soundstage sound deeper and wider, more three dimensional and holographic, via the analog inputs compared to the digitized inputs? Does the attack of the notes, for example the first sound you hear when the stick hits the hi-hat, or when the pick plucks the string... does it sound more natural, faster, realistic with the analog? Does it also decay more naturally? Listen to brushed snare drums -- can you hear the the direction of the circles the drummer is tracing on the drumhead, hear him change direction and each slight nuance and inflection? Conversely, do the digitizing inputs smooth out the nuances, making it harder to perceive the subtle changes in the brushwork, even turning it into something more closely resembling "hiss" or the spray of distant waves like many CDs do? These are the kinds of things to listen for when comparing.

And be sure to read the manuals for your player, receiver, etc., as they'll all describe the proper and improper methods of hooking up a high-res audio player, and the proper method is invariably via analog inputs that bypass all processing. However, I happen to know of some people here with Meridian and Lexicon gear, which if you're not familiar are extraordinarily powerful processors that allow you to do things to an audio signal in the digital realm with a great deal of transparency. Some of these folks prefer the ease of use that these powerful digital processors allow, particularly those who cannot otherwise properly position their speakers and need the time alignment features. Some prefer this even if they perceive a comparative lack of transparency, though acceptable as a minor trade-off. On the other hand, there's a website for Meridian owners that shows them how to "create" an analog bypass feature for certain Meridan models, specifically for hi-res sources like DVD-A and SACD. So, even with these high-powered, top-of-the-line digital processors, there's a set of people who nonetheless prefer not to futz with the pure analog signal.

Do I sound picky about the sound? Well, that's why I went hi-res!

 

[Brian L]

Simply hook up your player both ways simultaneously. It'll have to be stereo-only, obviously, as there are no multichannel inputs that allow you to "redigitize" a 6-channel signal. Now put on an SACD (of course, you must select the stereo track, as that's alll the "redigitizing" inputs will allow for) and toggle back and forth on your receiver between both inputs and listen... be sure to level-match so that the volume is as identical as possible.

Rich,

Can you explain this test in a bit more detail? I do not follow this fully. In my case, I have a 45A. It has 5.1 analog outs, and a stereo pair (both connected to my receiver).

If BM is on (and assuming BM works with 2 CH stuff), the L/R outs of the 5.1 set will have no bass below 100 Hz, while the stereo pair will be full range. Not a valid comparison at all, IMHO. Its apples to oranges.

Chopping off the signal below 100 Hz SHOULD have an audible affect, which can not really be blamed on poor BM. The fact that the speaker no longer is producing any low bass could and should change the way it sounds with frequencies above that level. Even Richard Hardesty wrote of this as a benefit of sub/sat systems in the WSR Subwoofer Guide.

If BM is off, however, I should get the exact same signal on both pairs.

So, having said that, what setting do I use for the test? Are you saying that the L/R pair of the 5.1 set will be degraded compared to the stereo pair, even with BM off?

I have read many posts from you on this, and really don't know that I ever understood under what circumstances you noted the degradation. I do not dispute that you hear something, but do not follow your test criteria.

Regards,

BGL

 

[Steve_AS]

Rich wrote:

If BM is on (and assuming BM works with 2 CH stuff), the L/R outs of the 5.1 set will have no bass below 100 Hz, while the stereo pair will be full range. Not a valid comparison at all, IMHO. Its apples to oranges.

Well, to be picky, there's *some* bass below 100; it's not a brickwall filter, it's a -6 (SACD) or -12db (everything else)/ octave slope below 100 Hz. Also, from what I have measured, it appears that with Audio OUtput set to 5.1, there *is* a readily measurable reduction of output level of the stereo pair output if BM is used (i.e., if the fronts are set to SMALL versus LARGE). This effect is eliminated if the AO menu is set to '2 channel'. I'm going to rerun this test, but I'd also love to get some confirmation of this from other users.

see:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...04#post1610604

 

[Rich Malloy]

c'mon, Rich, you've been around long enough to know that this sort of comparison can't possibly be good objective proof that PCM conversion of SACD (which these days often takes place at fantastically high rates) has an audible effect, much less a 'degradative' one.

I've been around long enough to know I should turn the music on and trust my ears. You can write about conversion rates and objective proofs all day, but come over to my house and let me play it for you both ways. Case closed, quod erat demonstrandum.

Buy me a Meridian, and the difference would surely be more subtle, but ain't so on my much more modest system. Which is why I encourage Sam (or anyone) to simply listen for themselves. Get a blindfold and a helper to assist you if you wish. Might as well go ahead and blindfold the helper, too. But listen for yourself.

Again, the difference isn't subtle on my system, and I'd suggest there's a very good reason why the manuals that come with your SACD players and receivers direct you to set them up as I have. But please do experiment, as I also surely do. And share what you find.

 

[Rich Malloy]

So, having said that, what setting do I use for the test? Are you saying that the L/R pair of the 5.1 set will be degraded compared to the stereo pair, even with BM off?

Understand what you're trying to do: you're testing the transparency of your receiver's DACs. One set of L/R inputs is going into the "Analog Bypass" inputs of your receiver, thus bypassing all internal circuitry (DSPs, bass management, time alignment, etc.). The other set of inputs is being reconverted to digital PCM so that it can be bass managed/time aligned/DSP'd/etc., and the reconverted from digital back to analog to output to your amp/speakers.

DON'T USE YOUR RECEIVER'S BASS MANAGEMENT/TIME ALIGNMENT/DSPs ON THE SECOND SIGNAL FOR THIS TEST! Turn them all off. All you want to do is place that additional analog-to-digital and then digital-back-to-analog conversion into the second signal chain without otherwise mussing with the sound. Hit "PLAY" and toggle between the two signals via your receiver. Now, you're comparing apples to apples.

But remember: this is the real world. Being able to bass manage/time align/DSP that signal in your receiver might, on balance, outweigh any loss of transparency that accompanies the reprocessing of the signal. So go ahead and optimize the bass management and time alignment, and compare again against signal one. You're now comparing apples to oranges, so you'll have to decide: do I prefer the apples or the oranges?

Likewise, you may want to compare your player's onboard bass management to your receiver's, which you can easily do by optimizing the first signal via your player's bass management and engaging your receiver's on the second (it should be properly calibrated from the previous test). Hit "PLAY" and toggle between the two via your receiver. Again, not a direct apples to apples comparison, but so what? Don't you want to know what's the best setup on your system? So, listen!

***Important note: this is for stereo sources. None of this will be relevant for most people while listening to multichannel discs. Why? Because on most receivers and pre-pros, the 6-channel inputs are analog only, and cannot be reconverted to digital no-how. You simply don't have the option. You're only questions would be whether you prefer your player's onboard bass management (if it has it) to no bass management whatsoever, or to the analog bass management of an accessory like the Outlaw ICBM-1.

 

[Brian L]

Understand what you're trying to do: you're testing the transparency of your receiver's DACs. One set of L/R inputs is going into the "Analog Bypass" inputs of your receiver, thus bypassing all internal circuitry (DSPs, bass management, time alignment, etc.). The other set of inputs is being reconverted to digital PCM so that it can be bass managed/time aligned/DSP'd/etc., and the reconverted from digital back to analog to output to your amp/speakers.

Perhaps this is my day to be thick headed.....

OK, all BM in the player is set to off. The L/R pair of the 5.1 outs goes to the 5.1 inputs of my receiver. There it should see nothing but a channel trim, volume control, then on to the power amp and speakers. As such, I am getting the full range L/R signal to my B&W 604's.

In addition, I am sending the the L/R stereo pair to another input on my receiver. At this point it IS being bass managed, but no TA or DSP is in the loop. So, in this case, I am crossing over at 80 Hz, so I am no longer getting full range to the 604's, but and sharing the load with my HSU 1225.

Thats still apples to oranges unless I turn off BM in the receiver. And if you are saying I should turn off BM in the receiver, then I would be hopefully by-passing anything bad that may or may not be happening if I do use BM, and then what would I be testing for????

Surely, I have missed something in your procedure.

BGL

 

[Steve_AS]

Perhaps this is my day to be thick headed.....

OK, all BM in the player is set to off. The L/R pair of the 5.1 outs goes to the 5.1 inputs of my receiver. There it should see nothing but a channel trim, volume control, then on to the power amp and speakers. As such, I am getting the full range L/R signal to my B&W 604's.

In addition, I am sending the the L/R stereo pair to another input on my receiver. At this point it IS being bass managed, but no TA or DSP is in the loop. So, in this case, I am crossing over at 80 Hz, so I am no longer getting full range to the 604's, but and sharing the load with my HSU 1225.

Thats still apples to oranges unless I turn off BM in the receiver. And if you are saying I should turn off BM in the receiver, then I would be hopefully by-passing anything bad that may or may not be happening if I do use BM, and then what would I be testing for????

Surely, I have missed something in your procedure.

Rich is assuming that any input into the analog dedicated 2-channel jacks of your receiver (e.g. analog 'CD', 'DVD', 'AUX', etc on the back) is being reconverted to digital (then back to analog) by *default*, i.e., *whether or not you do BM or DSP on them*. This is something you'd want to confirm for your particular rig. If it's true, then you can compare the 'passthrough' signal (no conversion) via the 6-channel input (L/R/ only), to the 'converted' signal via the 2-channel input. You also have to make sure your *player* isn't doing any BM on the signal first, for this comparison to be valid (if it is , it'll be easy to tell -- listening to a CD via the 6-channel input, there will be subwoofer output.)

Since you have a DV-45a, I'd suggest the following:

-set the 45a audio output to '2 channel' AFAICT this bypasses all the speaker size, level, etc settings. It defaults the speaker level to the +6 dB trim point.

- set speaker size in your receiver to LARGE, sub OFF -- equivalent of no bass management.

- if possible, match the speaker levels in the receiver for the 2-channel and 6-channel input (I can do this with my H-K; I don't know if it's possible with your receiver).

-- now, play a two-channel SACD track you know well , and switch back and forth between '6 channel' and '2 channel' (CD, DVD, AUX, etc, whatever you have the 45a's dedicated 2-ch jacks connected to)inputs.

-- also, play a CD

IF teh DV-45a settings affect its 6-channel and 2-channel jacks identically and IF your receiver automatically converts all 'CD jack' input, and IF the levels are matched (verify this with an RS level meter) and IF it sounds different to you, then MAYBE
the conversion is the culprit...but is it SACD-->PCM converwsion per se or simple A/D conversion that's causing it?

If you hear a difference in the SACD test but not with CD, then MAYBE it's the SACD-->PCM conversion.

And IF you've done this all sighted AND there's no sigificant level difference, then MAYBE the differences you perceive are imaginary.

 

[Brian L]

Ahhh, the fog clears.

That should be pretty easy to test, although I am not sure that I will do anything about it, should I detect a difference.

But at least I now understand the test criteria.

FWIW, I have an old school receiver (Marantz SR96) that lacks any sort of "direct bypass" or "pure direct" capability (other than through the 6 CH in).

Having that would make pretty short work of this testing, would it not?

BGL

 

[Sam R. Aucoin]

Received confirmation that my ICBM-1 will arrive tomorrow. Of course, I will be asking for the settings for all speakers

BTW - I assume that the ICBM-1 is intended to bass manage sources that are not otherwise bass-managed (those already bass-managed such as DVD-Videos that have pro-logic, DD, and DTS soundtracks) - correct?

If my assumption above is correct, will I EVER need the ICBM-1 to perform bass management for DVD-VIDEOS that have prologic/DD/DTS????? At first blush, it would seem "no", but ask just to cover my bases.

Boy - this thread has REALLY blossomed into a "how to set up a 5.1 primary-video system into a stereo/multichannel SACD/DVD-A music system".

Thanks again for the contributions. This thread has begun to read almost like a manual . . .

 

[Sam R. Aucoin]

Steve:

I think what Rich was saying is that by using the two analog inputs for LABELED devices on my Denon 5700 (such as CD, DVD, VCR, etc.) probably undergo some processing, even if it comes out in the end to be analog. The Ext.In. inputs have NO processing whatsoever - it is as though these inputs have an amplifier all to themselves, with the receiver doing nothing but providing connection posts and controlling the volume.

From what I can tell by reading the manual (the manual, btw, is horrible), if you DO use any of the device inputs, and hit the "direct" button, you will "convert" the device inputs to those like the "Ext. In." inputs - but of course, they will only be stereo. You CANNOT use the "direct" button AND hit a multichannel surround processor (like DD or DTS) and avoid a digital processing of the sound.

Thus, I guess the question becomes: what's the difference between using the Ext.In inputs with analog connections and using the CD or DVD inputs and hitting the "direct" button? I would guess the answer is "none, except that the CD/DVD inputs will necessarily be only stereo, as there are only two inputs, whereas the Ext.In inputs would be true 6 channel surround sound (if your SACD/DVD-A has a multichannel mix).

 

[Sam R. Aucoin]

Brian:

I believe you are correct with your last post. Unless your receiver has a "direct" button, then anything input to the device inputs (CD, LD, DVD, etc.) will ALWAYS be digitized in some manner.

On the other hand, the Ext.In. inputs will ALWAYS bypass any digitizing and be pure analog.

 

[Steve_AS]

Received confirmation that my ICBM-1 will arrive tomorrow. Of course, I will be asking for the settings for all speakers

BTW - I assume that the ICBM-1 is intended to bass manage sources that are not otherwise bass-managed (those already bass-managed such as DVD-Videos that have pro-logic, DD, and DTS soundtracks) - correct?

For DVD-V you have several choices:
1) play DVD-V sound through the digital connection. Your receiver will do all the bass management according to yoru receiver settings, as it decodes the DD/DPL/DTS soundtracks.
2) play the DVD through your analog-6-channel-outs
a) and let the player bass manage (bypass the Outlaw)
b) or let the Outlaw bass manage (set player bass management OFF)

#1 is the easiest.

 

[Sam R. Aucoin]

Thanks for responding Steve. I apologize for not being clearer.

What I meant by "settings" is the FREQUENCY each speaker should be set to on the ICBM-1. Tomorrow, when the ICBM-1 comes in, I will post the options for it, and also post the frequency ranges of each speaker in my 5.1 setup.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Brian, you got it now, right?

Sam, the ICBM-1 comes with an excellent, very readable manual. This readability/comprehensibility is highly unusual, so make the most of it! It'll provide you with good explanations for setting up, but again... this will be a trial-and-error approach. Dialing it all in will require that you use your ears!

Generally speaking, I'd start by setting the crossovers approximately 10Hz above the lowest frequency your speakers are capable of reproducing before starting to roll-off (the ol' +/-3DB thing). I believe you said your speakers are rated down to 80Hz, but I'm guessing that they start to roll-off a bit below that (they're THX-certified, after all, and THX generally presumes/recommends an 80Hz crossover). If they're equally rated all around, this will probably be your setting for all of them, but you can also select different crossover points for your fronts, rears, and center. (Are they all identical? Identical drivers, cabinets, etc?) You can also "recombine" the bass into your main speakers, but this feature is usually used by those with large main speakers and no sub, or large main speakers doubled by a sub. From what I know of your setup, you probably won't use this feature.

Now, how many subs do you use? If you have two, you can hook them up in mono or stereo. Then, select the slope for the crossover. I use the "NORMAL" setting for my setup, but there's also a steeper "THX" slope setting which might be applicable for your setup.

At this point, you'll want to do some listening, and you should choose music that tests all your speakers (you'll want to find some that makes heavy use of the center speaker and rear speakers, particularly very bass heavy info--we can give you some suggestions). It'd be helpful to have a friend, spouse, or spawn stand over by the ICBM and change settings as you direct them, as you stay in the sweet-spot, eyes closed, attentively listening to how subtle changes effect the overall sound. Listen for anything muddy sounding or congested, which might suggest that a speaker is struggling to reproduce some low frequency info. Listen for "non-directionality" of bass, that is, if a low pitched instrument is playing in the right rear corner, do the low frequencies sound like they're coming from the right rear corner (good) or from your sub (bad)? Go ahead and listen to the difference between the "NORMAL" and "THX" crossover slopes, though I'm guessing the latter might be best for your setup given the THX-rating and all. But check it out!

 

[Rich Malloy]

One more thing: take extra care when cabling this into your system! With six cables going from your player to your ICBM, and then six more from your ICBM to your receiver, there's plenty of opportunity to hook up something wrong! Check and double-check before installing it into your rack. Big pain to have to do it over.

(And don't overtighten those cables--if you do and can't loosen them by hand, wrap a protective cloth around the barrels, and carefully loosen using a very light hand with some pliers.)