Question about Winston Churchill (1 Viewer)

[Maurice McCone]

Possibly the most expensive country in the world? Maybe...

Damn straight Theo...its hard to think of anything we can buy cheaper in the UK than elsewhere eg cars, houses, alcohol, clothes and our beloved DVD's.....I blame the capitalists for this one...

 

[Mike Voigt]

Back to Winston Churchill...

I found the Atlantic article to be fascinating indeed. Not that I consider Churchill to be anything but a human being, but it is good to read differing viewpoints, in that BOTH tend to include some level of truth and BOTH tend to include a heck of a lot of perception - which may or may not be far removed from the actuality of the events.

Remember, there are always two faces to a coin - and a rim, also.

And, yes, having read some of the books on the codebreaking efforts during the War, reading Churchill's stories on how he explained away intelligence gathered via Ultra is funny!

I can recommend 'Codebreakers in the Far East' by Alan Stripp. Good book, interesting read!

Mike

 

[Bhagi Katbamna]

Damn straight Theo...its hard to think of anything we can buy cheaper in the UK than elsewhere eg cars, houses, alcohol, clothes and our beloved DVD's.....I blame the capitalists for this one...

Just curious, why?

 

[TheoGB]

I think Maurice was joking Bhagi - hence the smilies??
I wasn't, but I don't blame capitalism - I blame the widening gulf in this country between rich and poor (which was exacerbated in the 80's) which allows for there to be a market for incredibly pricey goods, blah blah blah.
Hey, what would you expect from a socialist?

 

[andrew markworthy]

Maurice - simple facts: (a) I wasn't attacking the decision to fight Argentina, just that the Argentinians would not have invaded if the UK had maintained a naval prescence in the South Atlantic; (b) nationally, more people voted against the Conservatives than voted for them and (c) Britain's much-vaunted recovery depends upon a very selective reading of statistics.

Incidentally, just to indicate that I'm not trying to bash MT out of political belief, I should add that I loathe Labour just as much. Had this question been about e.g. Harold Wilson, I'd have been just as scathing about him. I firmly believe that a nation should be judged first and foremost on how well it looks after the defenceless and those in need. And there MT (and for that matter most other governments) are found wanting.

 

[Ben Motley]

Holy shit. Maurice, I wrote all that about Pearl Harbor just for you buddy. The least you could do is acknowledge it. I really get tired of spending time on these boards and not getting any feedback. Or maybe you were making some sarcastic remark when you posted your question about Roosevelt, and never really cared for an answer in the first place. If so, I'm sorry I took you seriously and wasted my time.

As for the main conversation here, I don't know much about Maggie, except that she "inspired" a lot of the punk bands I used to listen to.

As for Winnie, he was a kick ass guy. I've got much respect for the man. Do I know enough about the details of his life to spend time analyzing the differences between the legend and the facts? No, but just knowing how he conducted himself in the face of drastic conditions is enough for me. The Battle of Britain was enough to break anyone's balls, and Churchill and the Brits took it on the chin and held out like real troopers.

 

[Maurice McCone]

Ben,

sorry mate, I deserved that. I really hadn't ignored your memo, indeed I was just forwarding a copy for my father to read. It was he who mentioned this theory to me in the first place, apologies for not replying sooner.

My question was not scarcastic but was motivated by an intent on illustrating that almost every leader has had the acussation levied against them that they may have sacrificed one group to save another during war.

I read your reply and take from it that there may well be some truth that FDR may have faced such a decision. My view is that such decisions are inevitable by leaders during war, and thankfully when they had to be made we had leaders of the quality of FDR and Churchill to take them !!

Whether or not they are the right decisions is not for us to decide without considering the 'fog of war' which surrounded that moment in time.

Personally, I believe Churchill was our greatest leader, a true 'cometh the time, cometh the man' occasion. I guess the same can be said for FDR.

Thanks again Ben for the reply.

Damn straight Theo...its hard to think of anything we can buy cheaper in the UK than elsewhere eg cars, houses, alcohol, clothes and our beloved DVD's.....I blame the capitalists for this one...

BHAGI - I am afraid I was being a little facetious here. Having taken a more right wing view of history in this thread than other contributers, it is ironic that I do believe that 'rip-off Britain is an inevitable, unfortunate result of the free market economy.

We really do live in a very expensive country and the only hope is for the consumer to reject the high price goods in the UK and go else where - which is what I and many other Brits here, do every time they order their Reg1 DVD's.

 

[Ben Motley]

Thanks Maurice . It sucks putting so much into a post and never knowing if you've made an impact, so I really do appreciate it, and I apologize if I was a little harsh about it all. And thanks to forwarding it off to your dad, that's more acknowledgement than I could have hoped for. Anyway...
One more note. I found the following quote particularly chilling...
(Bold text is my emphasis)

So is this quote something about George Bush, regarding Intelligence about terrorist activity prior to 9/11? Is it some modern quote about Pearl Harbor, made from distant hindsight? No, this was told to Navy lieutenant j.g. Edward Hanify by Admiral J.O. Richardson (the admiral who had turned over command of the Pacific fleet to Admiral Kimmel, who if you've forgot, was Washington's patsy for Pearl), when Hanify interviewed him in April of 1944 while researching the case in order to defend Kimmel at his inevitable court-martial.
I agree that hard decisions in bleak times may have to be made that may endager a few to protect the many, but I also think that both Roosevelt grossly miscalculated the potential damage. Had he known that our fleet was not ready, I doubt he would have been so unyielding to the Japanese so soon.

 

[Maurice McCone]

chilling indeed...

there was some recent releases from British Intelligence in the British press recently (sorry can't find the references at present) they refered to a British double agent, the gist of the story was that he had supplied some portentious info re the Japanese plans for Pearl Harbour weeks before the event.

The main point however, is that I tend not to believe that Pearl Harbour was offered up in sacrifice, any more than Churchill offered up Coventry - I don't believe that there would have been an appreciation of the consequences good or bad at the time.

One point however, is that the British capture of an Enigma machine was absolutely vital to shaping how Britain fought its war; I live only a few miles from Bletchly Park where the code breaking was carried during the war - and it is worth a visit to hear more about the Ultra story and how the secret was kept.

 

[StephenK]

Brian,

Thanks for the info, will pick up "Ultra goes to war" and peruse next time I'm at B&N. and I still think it's some other city I'm thinking about, but I'm going to have to find the original article that started me on this quest.

Steve

 

[Grant B]

I am a direct relative to his mother. He almost died when he went to visit and stay with my Great Grandfathers Brother in NYC (looked the wrong way silly Englishman)
Watched a documentray and it said how he would build things (bricklaying) when he got nervous.
I just about spit since I have the same strange habit