Question about the Axiom subwoofers...no love?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Alan Lackey, Feb 22, 2002.

  1. Alan Lackey

    Alan Lackey Agent

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    I am looking for new speakers and was considering the Axiom Master system...but I dont see many positive comments on their subwoofers.

    I have never heard an SVS [my loss I know], but I guess I would like to hear from someone who has heard/purchased the EP-175.

    I hope to have an SVS one day...but for now looking for an alternative.

    Thanks in advance for the input!
     
  2. Ron Reda

    Ron Reda Cinematographer

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  3. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    Well the problem is looking at the prices and the specs you can do a lot better for your money. For only $20 more than the EP125 you could get an Adire Rava, which will go lower, louder and sound just as good or better. In fact a fairer comparison would be between the Rava and the EP175. The Rava is $100 less and would still go lower, louder, and sound just as good or better.

    The HSU VTF2 would also easily match or beat the EP175 for less.

    Both the Rava and VTF2 would most fairly be compared with the EP350. But at that price point you can get an Adire Dharman for $20 less. Which would easily beat out a EP350.

    Often manufatures that make good speakers don't make great subs. Lucky for us you don't have to worry about tonal matches between subs and speakers, so it doesn't matter if you go to a different manufacture for the sub.
     
  4. Ron Reda

    Ron Reda Cinematographer

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    Good points, Dustin. I actually use a JBL PB12 with my Axioms and it sounds pretty good for the price I paid ($250). Of course, it would get pummelled by an HSU-VTF or Adire Rava. Man, I really need to get an SVS...
     
  5. Alan Lackey

    Alan Lackey Agent

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    Thanks for the input and the link!

    I really need to go demo some subwoofers and see what sounds good to me. I have a small M&K now that I love, but its time to make the step up.
     
  6. Marc H

    Marc H Second Unit

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    Now keep in mind that I am biased because I sell them but I find the Axiom subs to be as good of a value as their speakers are. They just need to get some reviews out there on them to give them credibility.
    They are tight, fast and musical. Unusually low distortion for their price ranges from the combination of the aluminum woofer cone along with the vortex ports. The ports are truly noiseless with absolutely no chuffing or rude noises at all.
    Also, take their low frequency extension spec as being perhaps too honest for this industry. They do have ample and usable output far below the specified point. See this link for the designers explanation of that:
    http://207.228.226.248/wwwthreads/sh...age=&view=&sb=
    Also, with the Axiom subs, as you up through the models, it's not just a case of deeper and louder bass but the overall fidelity and detail retrieval increases too.
     
  7. Rick Radford

    Rick Radford Supporting Actor

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    >They just need to get some reviews out there on them to give them credibility.<

    That's no doubt true. I decided on SVS early on in my HT research.. largely because of the user reports here. ('course deciding which one went right down to the day it shipped!)

    OOC, what other speaker lines do you work with, Marc?
     
  8. Marc H

    Marc H Second Unit

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    Hiya Rick,

    All Canadian brands now; Axiom, Dahlquist, Energy, Paradigm and Totem.

    I have yet to hear an SVS but will in the near future.
     
  9. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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    Marc,

    My only concern is that their little 8" sub can't be tuned below 40-45Hz. The physical cabinet size and the dual 2" ports make anything lower impossible.

    Brian
     
  10. Rick Radford

    Rick Radford Supporting Actor

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    Thanks for the info, Marc. You can do what I've wanted to do for a while: compare the Paradigm S/40 or S/60 with Axiom M60Ti.

    And how about the S/CC compared to the VP150?

    (sorry to hijack your thread, Alan!)
     
  11. Marc H

    Marc H Second Unit

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    Rick, I'll shoot you an email on that. I have restrictions I unfortunately must abide by.
     
  12. Dave Simpson

    Dave Simpson Second Unit

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    Hey Marc,

    Can you send that e-mail to me, as well? I'm a big Axiom fan, too (M60, M3, VP150, EP175). Would enjoy reading your thoughts on this David vs. Goliath match-up. Cheers!

    DS.
     
  13. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    Marc, I have to aggree with Brian. And to add to what he said, being very generous, the lowest you could tune a 350 is 22hz (which is actually quite good) and the lowest you could tune the 175 is 27.5hz (not very good). The 40+ hz for the 125 is down right aweful.

    A pair of 2" ports is plenty for the 8", just enough for the 10". But a pair of 2" ports is not enough for a high output 12" driver. Also, what exactly this vortex porting system is I don't know. Looks to me like straight ports with some covered foam material around the flange. True flares on ports can help a lot, but those are far from real flares.

    A single 3" port can get more air through it than a pair of two inch ports. The VTF2 is a high excursion 10" driver, and has a properly flared 3" port. The Rava is sealed so porting isn't an issue, and the Dharman uses a pair of flared 3" ports.

    That reply that link takes you two also seems to be worded like he is talking about a sealed system, not a ported one. Ported sytems response drops like a rock below their tuning freqeuency. Which is why the 125's 40hz tuning is very bad, the 175's 27.5-30hz tuning is not very good and the 350's tuning is good (just not enough port area, if it is enough then it isn't a very high output 12" driver).
     
  14. Marc H

    Marc H Second Unit

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    Dustin,
    You should ask Ian about that on Axiom's message board. I'm no engineer but he is [​IMG]
    Audibly though they sound more than competitive. Awesome on music too given the price ranges.
     
  15. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    I learned a fair bit about sub enclosure design when I built my Tempest Sonosub (follow the link in my sig for more info and to see some photos).

    I'd place myself at an intermediate level for knowledge of sub enclosure design (I'm still very much a beginner when it comes to actual driver design). From that knowledge I wouldn't consider any of the Axiom subs the best choice at their price points.

    Hands down I'd take a Rava or VTF2 over the 125 or 175. The 350 has a chance to compete, I'd give it a shot against those two subs. However, the 350 is in the Dharman's price range, and I would hands down take the Dharman over the 350.

    I built my sub for $100 less than the 350 and it would take a pair of 20-39CS subs to come close to mine output wise. Sound quality wise, I have good group delay, and the low tuning mimics a sealed Q of less then 0.6 so the bass is very tight and defined.

    With a tuning of 40hz or higher, I wouldn't even call the 125 a sub, more like a bass module.
     
  16. Marc H

    Marc H Second Unit

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    Dustin,
    Have you heard any of the Axioms? Worth an audition. The clarity, speed and lack of distortion is usually the first thing the client mentions when I'm doing demos with them vs competition. I can't comment on the Rava, VTF2 nor SVS (although I'll listen to an SVS very soon) as I have had no exposure to them. From reading about them here and there, they do get high marks.
    Axiom claims the 8 inch is flat to 35hz with usable output below that. You should be able to qualify the usable output below that from Ian at Axiom though.
    I gotta stop this though, I'm starting to sound like an Axiom salesman [​IMG]
     
  17. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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  18. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    I'm not saying, nor I hope have I implied that any of the Axiom subs will sound bad. I've never heard one. I'm sure their sound quality is great. What I am saying, is that for the same or less money you can get a sub that goes significantly lower and louder and will sound just as good if not better.

    Extension and output are important to me as is sound quality. Sound quality is something that is harder to judge from simple specs (not impossible, manufactures just never post the specs that would allow a very good guess at sound quality). Output and extension isn't hard to determine from even minimal specs.

    Sub enclosure design, for the most part is very simple. There are software programs out there that can very very accurately predicte the output of a particular driver in a particular allignment (even account for room interaction).

    Brian isn't joking either. He built a sub for less than a $100 that will match that EP125.

    Brian,

    Axiom's site lists them at 20 lb for the 8" and 45lb for the 12". Some rough calculation gave me 31 lbs of mdf to make an unbraced enclosure the size of the 350. So that would mean the driver, amp and ports could only weigh 14 lbs. Maybe it's 1/2" mdf with some bracing.
     
  19. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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  20. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    I'd say you have a winner. I'm afraid I won't be buying one soon though :p)
    Planning on 5xkit281 allong with a kit2851 (I'll assume that is what the new center will be called). With hopefully a ThomasW tubezilla type sub using that new driver Dan is talking about. Biggest problem is gonna be I graduate this year, and I'm likely gonna end up quite far away from my dad's tools when it's time to build. I'm just praying I can find a nice Norm wannabe where ever I end up.
    Any good bio-infomatics jobs where you live [​IMG]
     

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