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Question about NTSC (1 Viewer)

Rob_Walton

Second Unit
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Nov 3, 2004
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Also, playback of PAL on an NTSC TV will never look perfect (or even better than the NTSC) and you're not going to get the "extra" resolution either. You're just going to get speed-up and some artifacts (which vary depending on your playback machine).
Ah , but not everyone lives in the US . ;) For those of us outside America who have TVs that will accept a higher resolution an NTSC disc represents a drop in quality , pure and simple .

As to PAL speed up ... I can honestly say I've never noticed on Brotherhood of the Wolf which I own in both PAL and NTSC , haven't noticed it with Spartaus or In the Mood for Love either (which I just had to buy the Criterions for the great extras) . Are you sure you can tell a difference , or is this just something (mainly American) people tell themselves as a consolation that the step down in resolution isn't so bad after all . :D (just a joke)
 

andrew markworthy

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Now try watching one of your favorite movies in NTSC that you've always watched in PAL and tell me what you think.
Can't tell a difference - other than the picture is slightly inferior.

Most people really do not notice the difference, because their brains automatically make the adjustment (most people are governed by relative rather than absolute pitch).

For someone to be really strongly affected by PAL speed-up, listening to recordings of music must be unbearable because of course there are differences in tuning and the tape speeds used (this particularly applies to older recordings). Likewise, TV stations have been known to slightly speed up or slow down a tape to get it to hit the desired broadcast time. But curiously enough, this never gets mentioned by folks who are disturbed by PAL speed-up.
 

CraigL

Screenwriter
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Yes, of course, I'm only speaking of people who are living inside the US to notice a difference. Again, these are American movies with American actors and NTSC IS the proper speed to display them, regardless of the picture quality increase from PAL (which is incremental). We're talking about pure science here. Regardless of whether you hear it or not, it IS sped up. The damn running time is shorter. :) It doesn't take a scientist to figure this out. If the movie ain't edited, then it's sped up.

Funny enough that you should mention that speed-up. I've been "in" radio most of my life and know that some radio stations will speed up songs to fit a certain # of them within a "song block." This, of course, affects the pitch. I remember saying something to my father about this when i was around 12 or 13 because I remember the song I heard on the radio when I noticed it.

True, I don't notice it on some older recordings because I honestly don't listen to older recordings all that often. You'd have to be more specific about what you consider "old."

And I actually bought a record player that has a pitch control on it because my old one was playing songs too slow and it drove me up a wall. ;) So yes, I do notice it on ALL mediums, for the most part.

And no, i've never seen ANYTHING on a PAL tv so I wouldn't know if it looks better. All I know is that I'm watching HDTV now and I don't care about NTSC or PAL anymore. I just want THAT. ;)
 

Mark Oates

Supporting Actor
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Mar 12, 2004
Messages
875
If you've got perfect pitch (like CraigL) you can't help noticing PAL speed-up, and because it's (IIRC) half-a-semitone/ 4% (your mileage may vary), it's damn annoying if you're used to hearing the correct pitch as provided by NTSC.

Personally like Andrew, I'm used to PAL speed-up and although I do notice it, it doesn't bother me greatly. I do find the drop from 576 lines to 480 more annoying as the scan-lines become more obvious. Slightly more annoying is 3:2 pulldown, but hopefully when the UK gets its governmental arse in gear in 2010 and introduces HDTV maybe we'll be able to afford and enjoy it too. Until then, my main criteria for buying R2 titles over R1 will primarily remain wanting to be able to watch my DVDs on new equipment even if the Studios get Region Coding internationally backed up by criminal legislation.
 

andrew markworthy

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when the UK gets its governmental arse in gear in 2010 and introduces HDTV
The first HDTV broadcasts are due on the Sky (satellite service run by Rupert Murdoch) network in 2006. There's currently a lot of stink about this because the Sky system when announced a couple of weeks ago will allegedly only accept one type of connection that is currently incredibly rare on Brit TVs. This means that a lot of people who already have LCDs and plasmas with the correct resolutions for HDTV won't be able to receive it. At the moment there are more than a few feathers flying around the hen coop over this one in dear old Blighty.
 

jason:g

Stunt Coordinator
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Apr 16, 2004
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Well, one shouldn't get hung up on the NTSC vs. PAL line resolution debate, since line resolution doesn't count for peanuts, since it is bitrate that affects MPEG video quality.
I have a lot of NTSC discs because in general the U.S. discs are mastered better than the U.K. or Australian discs.

...interesting question (perhaps?): will this (pointless!) 'battle' continue once HD-DVD comes along, or does HD-DVD do away with the 'problem'...?...
Since HD-DVD will still be presented in either NTSC or PAL, people will still continue to be hung up on this non-issue of line resolution...
 

Mark Oates

Supporting Actor
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The first HDTV broadcasts are due on Sky
And don't forget that Sky have only just confirmed they'll support 1080i. The HD service they were going to launch was going to be 720p (IIRC).

There's still a lot of dragging feet in the UK about HD. Nobody's pushing HD as the future of television, they're all still banging on about SD Digital transmissions and postponing the analogue switchoff so as not to offend those types who only watch television for the Queen's Speech on Christmas Day. Although there are a few HD-ready sets available, most aren't fitted with the HDMI connector Sky want to put on their box to stop people recording their output. As far as signals to watch, apart from Sky's 2006 vapourware there's only an EC funded channel on one of the satellites you have to get a special dish to view. The BBC are champing at the bit to start HD work (as they did a hell of a lot of the research in the first place), but they're battling funding problems and the Dept. of Trade and Industry who obviously want to wreck the BBC so they can flog it off to Rupert Murdoch.

And pardon me if I'm being dense, but I thought HD (as 1080 is an international standard definition) wouldn't be either PAL or NTSC, but technically a completely new standard.
 

jason:g

Stunt Coordinator
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1080 could be 1080/60I, 1080/50I, 1080/24p/24sf for compatibility with various video systems.

Obviously most of us will still have existing PAL/NTSC TV, and won't be upgrading to 1080 HDTV. HD-DVD will be compatible with existing PAL/NTSC SDTV systems, so they still playback in PAL/NTSC.
 

Matthew Todd

Second Unit
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Jan 3, 2000
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338
And pardon me if I'm being dense, but I thought HD (as 1080 is an international standard definition) wouldn't be either PAL or NTSC, but technically a completely new standard
You are correct. HD in the US is under the new ATSC system. I believe there is another option system (DVB?) that is likely to be the standard in Europe and several other parts of the world.

Once all this happens maybe we will be talking about the differences between ATSC vs. DVB!

Matt
 

Mark Oates

Supporting Actor
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Mar 12, 2004
Messages
875
Obviously most of us will still have existing PAL/NTSC TV, and won't be upgrading to 1080 HDTV. HD-DVD will be compatible with existing PAL/NTSC SDTV systems, so they still playback in PAL/NTSC.
Ah, but my point is that HDTV seems to be a standard resolution independent of the playback technology. Unless I'm getting this completely wrong, the impression I get is that all HDTV should be 1920x1080x24(?). The image will be translated to the final display resolution and frame rate by the player/display and therefore will be shown at the optimum native resolution and frame rate of the display. This should mean you're not watching an alien resolution/ frame rate as you currently do when watching an NTSC (720x480x60) signal on a PAL (720x576x50) set (or vice versa). Hopefully finally the video signal format should be transparent. Or am I being too optimistic?

UPDATE: I've just had a paddle through both the ATSC and DVB specs and although the 50Hz/60Hz framerate difference will remain as a hangover from NTSC and PAL, the systems have been developed to be completely compatible, so maybe we won't get into any ATSC/DVB squabbles in the future. Although I'm sure we can always find something else to argue about :D
 

Rodney Martin

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Jun 14, 2004
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103
Don't forget the fast uptake of digital TV in the UK, which has slowed down the desire to implement HDTV. Most people in the UK now watch digital broadcasts via aerial, satelite or cable. Hopefully HDTV will create a unified worldwide standard accross the globe with the correct playing time & no 3:2 dropdown with the panning problems that causes, to end this debate once and for all. Maybe it has, i dont know to much about the HDTV standard yet. But no doubt the assholes in the EU will want to do somthing different, in which case the UK should go there own way, since a hdtv standard has already been defined.
 

Matthew Todd

Second Unit
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Jan 3, 2000
Messages
338
UPDATE: I've just had a paddle through both the ATSC and DVB specs and although the 50Hz/60Hz framerate difference will remain as a hangover from NTSC and PAL, the systems have been developed to be completely compatible, so maybe we won't get into any ATSC/DVB squabbles in the future. Although I'm sure we can always find something else to argue about
Although isn't the 4% speed up of PAL related to the 50 Hz refresh? If I understand right, for a film source (24 frames/sec), PAL takes each frame and shows it twice, while NTSC (60 Hz refresh) alternates between 2 and 3 times for each frame. The 2/3 alternation works out nearly perfectly for turning 24 frame/sec into 60 Hz, while the 2/2 PAL results in a 4% speedup.

Since the new specs (ATSC and DVB) still use 60 Hz and 50 Hz respectively, there will probably still be the 4% speed up issue.

Matt
 

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