question about HK bass management

Discussion in 'AV Receivers' started by JimIroc, Mar 23, 2004.

  1. JimIroc

    JimIroc Agent

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2004
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I just bought a NAD T742, which has VERY limited bass management capabilities. The crossover frequency is fixed, and appears to be at 100hz.

    Anyway... I realize that the HK receivers have far more flexible bass management, but my main question is this... will the bass management run the main speakers high-pass in 2 channel mode? Even with my main speakers set to "small", the NAD plays them full range in stereo mode, which drives me nuts. I don't want my mains and my sub overlapping. I can turn the filter on the sub down to match the natural rolloff of my mains, but I'd prefer to let the sub handle everything from 60 or 80hz and down.

    Also, does anybody have listening experience with the HK and NAD receivers? I'm really starting to like how this NAD sounds compared to my Denon 1801 that it replaced, and I'm afraid that going to the HK AVR-325 is going to give me the added bass management, but at the expense of sound quality.

    I've got to decide by friday if I'm sending this receiver back.
     
  2. Brad E

    Brad E Second Unit

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2004
    Messages:
    304
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I don't know about all the H/K receivers but with the 7200 the crossover settings apply to all modes. Furthermore, you can change the crossover and speaker setups for each imput.
     
  3. Wayne Ernst

    Wayne Ernst Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,588
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Jim,

    You really should hit the H/K web site and download the manual on the AVR-325 in .PDF format. That way, you could really see what the 325 offers.
     
  4. Howard_You

    Howard_You Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    JimIRoc,

    I have a NAD T742. The crossover is fixed but it's actually at 80Hz (according to NAD tech support). However, I was under the impression that bass management was active for all but the 5.1 ext inputs. So, the output to your mains set to "small" *should* be filtered, even in stereo mode, from my interpretation of the manual anyway. It's funny actually, the behaviour you're getting is what I would like [​IMG], since I like the bass from my mains for stereo music over the subs base. I don't have my sub hooked up right now so I can't try it out though. Presumably, the other modes such as enhanced stereo are filtering the main output fine when set to small?

    I believe the newer 743 allows this setting to be changed from 60Hz-150Hz.

    The H/Ks have extensive bass management that allow you to specify a crossover for front/centre/rears separately and have different crossovers settings depending on the input source.

    I listened to a H/K AVR325 and didn't like the sound as much as the NAD T742 but that's obviously very subjective and heavily dependant no your speakers. Though here in Canada H/Ks are overpriced anyway so that also swayed my decision.
     
  5. JimIroc

    JimIroc Agent

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2004
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I never tried enhanced stereo, but in DPL I get a high-pass signal as I would expect, but as soon as I switch to stereo, I get bass from my mains and my sub.

    Would you be willing to describe the differences in sound between the HK and the NAD when you auditioned them?

    I've found that the NAD seems to be noticably cleaner than my Denon with a more focused (and narrow) soundstage. However, it seems like my denon allowed the background instruments to be a bit more noticable, although not as clean.

    Overall I like how the NAD sounds, and one of my concerns is that the HK isn't going to provide the same level of sound quality. But... at this point I'm ready to take advantage of the HK's features, and if I need more sound quality, I'll start shopping on ebay for vintage 2-channel amps.
     
  6. Howard_You

    Howard_You Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0


    Sure, although it wasn't a scientific audition by any means. A little more background first...I've had an H/K AVR30 pro-logic receiver for about five years hooked up to Acoustic Research AR310 speakers. I was extremely happy with the stereo sound of this combination. In the past year I purchased a matching centre (AR2C) and bookshelves (AR 206HO) for rear surrounds. So, of course I needed to upgrade the receiver to DD/DTS. Because I was very satisfied with the H/K I looked at them first and was heavily leaning towards the H/K AVR325, it had an excellent feature set and enough power for my tastes. I listened to an AVR525 in a store hooked up to Polk Audio speakers (don't remember the model but they were floor-standers in the C$1200 range). My expectations were pretty high but to me it didn't sound as good as my AVR30 at stereo music, I don't know specifically what the difference was, it just sounded a bit bland or muffled or something like that, maybe it just wasn't a good receiver for those speakers. Certainly HT sounded very good. Eventually I tried the NAD T742, in another store, paired with a set of Paradigm bookshelves & a sub and HT sounded about the same to me as the H/K but stereo music was definately better, even without the sub. The instruments were more clearly separated and imaging was excellent, I could have sworn the centre speaker was on but it wasn't. The C$650 price compared to C$1200+ for the H/K was also a factor.
     
  7. JimIroc

    JimIroc Agent

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2004
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I would think that the different speakers would contribute far more toward any audible differences than the amp. Even with the same speakers I find the differences from one amp to another to be subtle compared to the massive differences from one brand speaker to another.
     
  8. Tom Sullivan

    Tom Sullivan Agent

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    JimIroc,
    The speakers make a huge difference. I heard the AVR7200 with Pols Audio's and the HK sounded 10X better at home through a full set of Paradigm's.

    I don't know what you got the Nad for but the AVR7200 is selling around $750 now. If you can before you return the NAD, try the HK at home from a outlet that has an easy return policy. Tones have been said to be very similar between the NAD's & HK's and $750 for the HK7200 is too good a price for a very impressive receiver.
     
  9. Greg Thomas

    Greg Thomas Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    438
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If you do get the HK 325, its very configurable. You can configure the speakers to small and set the crossover anywhere from 40-200hz and also set the sub x-over within that same range. The setting for that mode can be independent of any other mode. You can have 2 channel stereo with no sub and have the sub active for all other inputs and modes. I've never seen a receiver with so much flexibility.

    I love the sound but have never compared it to the NAD.
     
  10. Howard_You

    Howard_You Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Yea, that's what I used to think too. Honestly, the NAD T742 vs. the H/K AVR30 both rated at 60wpc stereo sound very different on my speakers with same source, speaker wire, room etc. The most obvious difference was the bass which was clearly stronger on the NAD. I was suprised. Sure, speakers probably make the biggest difference but the difference b/w receivers is also substantial in my opinion. Now, maybe if you had an EQ you could get both to sound a lot more similar, I don't know. Maybe the H/K wasn't putting out enough power for my speakers, but at 95db efficency I doubt it.

    Note that I'm talking about receivers and not strictly amplifiers.
     
  11. Tom Sullivan

    Tom Sullivan Agent

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    "The most obvious difference was the bass which was clearly stronger on the NAD."

    Bass could be subjective also. Like I don't like bloated bass. In comparing the HK7200 to my Maratnz SR8000. The 7200 has a cleaner bass sound where as the Martanz could be considered bloated. I use a HSU-VT2 sub, seems to work nice with the HK7200.
     
  12. Howard_You

    Howard_You Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Sure...it's all subjective. A friend of mine updraded from an H/K AVR85 to Rotel separates a couple of years ago now and still says he preferred the H/K for stereo music. I believe he had B&W speakers.

    I wouldn't characterize the bass on the NAD as bloated though, it's more that the H/K AVR30s bass was very thin in comparison, I always thought it was my speakers until I got the NAD. Of course, with a sub it's a moot point anyway.
     
  13. Tom Sullivan

    Tom Sullivan Agent

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I prefer the speakers at small and having the HSU handle the bass, even though each of my Pardigm Towers have powered subs in them.

    From what I've heard this past weekend comparing the HK7200. Both my Marantz and the Onkyo 701 were made to seem bloated compared with the cleaner bass on the HK.

    Haven't heard the NAD's though they're said to be similar to the Arcam's which I have heard and no the Arcams are not overly bassy.
     
  14. JimIroc

    JimIroc Agent

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2004
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    well... from the sounds of this discussion, it seems that I'm going to be getting similar quality, even if it's somewhat different.

    I boxed up the Nad tonight and hooked my Denon 1801 back up. My god, I didn't realize how good the Nad sounded until I went back to this thing. What a difference. If the HK doesn't provide a similar increase in performance over the Denon that the Nad did, I'm going to be disappointed.

    But... even with the Denon the bass (thanks to more useful bass management) sounds worlds better than it did with the Nad.

    Next question... is the pre-amp stage clean enough on the HK that if I buy a Nad amp down the road, it'll give me similar performance?
     
  15. Howard_You

    Howard_You Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hope the H/K works out better for you, I presume you went for the AVR325? Say, can I ask what kind of speakers you are using?
     
  16. JimIroc

    JimIroc Agent

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2004
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm not sure what I'm doing now. After hearing the remarkable difference between the Nad and the Denon, I'm scared to death that the HK is going to sound more like the Denon than the Nad.

    If I go with an HK, it'll be the 325 or the 330, but now I'm thinking of either trying to work out my issues with the 742 or moving up to a refurbished 752.

    My speakers are Boston T830s. I've been listening to a lot of speakers lately in preparation for building my own set, but what surprised me was that with the Nad, all of a sudden my little old Bostons have a whole new dimension to them. Instruments are as clean and as clear as anything I've been hearing in showrooms. Vocals and highs are still a bit off, but with a good amp, these bostons sound a lot better than I ever realized. A lot of the shortcomings that I've been hearing have been the amp and not my speakers.
     
  17. Howard_You

    Howard_You Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    JimIroc,

    I would at least call/email NAD or your dealer and ask if the behaviour of the bass management is expected. Maybe there's something wrong with your receiver.


    From this statement I'm guessing you won't be happy with a different brand of receiver in the T742 price range.
     
  18. cabreau

    cabreau Second Unit

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2003
    Messages:
    322
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    In stereo mode, you can choose fronts being used as full range, or you can set it to crossover at one of the many built-in frequencies that you choose and use the Sub for anything below whatever you choose.

    So yes, it has two modes.
     
  19. JimIroc

    JimIroc Agent

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2004
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Many of what built-in frequencies? The Nad uses a non-adjustable fixed crossover frequency.
     

Share This Page