Question about Amps and Surge Protectors (1 Viewer)

[RussKon]

Bill,
Surge-X does provide whole house solutions...although that doesn't help if a surge and/or emi interference originates in your house...other household appliances can cause problems in your audio/video/computer gear....
Mary and Chu,
Surge-X (a series-mode protector like brickwall) DOES NOT require ground connection to operate properly...
The following is a quote from the Surge-X website:
"SurgeX Series Mode surge suppressors act first as low pass filters which simply block the high-frequency (HF) components of powerline surges. The remaining low-frequency (LF) surge energy is diverted into a bank of capacitors where it is stored for the duration of the event and then slowly discharged back across the incoming hot and neutral conductors without involving any connection to Equipment Ground. SurgeX Series Mode surge suppressors can thus be placed anywhere along a power circuit without the ground reference elevation disadvantage of Shunt Mode surge protection devices."
Additionally, the inrush current after a power outage has been mentioned several times in this thread...Surge-X has incorporated I.C.E. (inrush current elimination) in many of their products...In addition to protecting your components after a power outage, it also allows you to power up several large amplifiers without the high initial current draw that can blow a normal 15 amp circuit.
Russ
www.surgex.com

 

[Bill Kane]

Russ,
You must be aware that ZeroSurge is the patent-holder on this Series Mode technology, and, as such, licenses it not only to SurgeX, but Brickwall and Adcom as well.
So consumers DO have a shopping choice among U.L.1449(Second Edition) Adjunct Test units all meeting the Grade A Endurance, Class 1 Performance and Mode 1 No Ground Circuit Contamination.
A prudent buyer will look at the various features and prices among these units to best meet their needs.
www.zerosurge.com
www.brickwall.com
Link Removed

 

[Chu Gai]

Brickwall, Zerosurge, Adcom, Surgex, and possibly others are series mode protection but to think they are impervious will lull one into a potentially false sense of security. Series mode protection acts as a dike on hot (black) and neutral (white) wire. It provides no protection on the safety ground (green) wire and this its soft underbelly so to speak. surge protection can only be as effective as its earth ground. Shunt protection, as provided by MOV's must include a superior single point ground. Series mode protection requires, even moreso, that central earth ground be the best ground in the structure. The effectiveness of ground is best at the source, not 50 or 100 feet away. The greatest failing we have when considering surge protection is the thinking that unit X is better than unit Y which might be better than unit Z and all the while forgetting that importance that ground plays in the whole scheme. When one peruses companies that make their bread and butter in serious surge protection, its not their products that they're touting first and foremost, its the importance of your earth ground. That said, understand I am not advocating against series mode protection rather I am pointing out the not insignificant role that ground plays in the protection process. Even Power Engineers disagree on many of the best ways to present a product's worthiness as a surge suppression device. Suffice it so say, there are many ways to skin this cat. While not mentioned yet in this thread, one can also utilize installations employing isolation transformer technology to mitigate the effect of surges while providing quite clean power. If anyone has any interest, I have a paper written by OneAc that deals with this topic and it's chock full of scope reading and technical information that's not too difficult to go through.
Mary, if you're interested in some info regarding lightning, drop a PM and I'll provide a decent place for DIY that'll guide you appropriately.

 

[Jimmie Lee]

I own and operate a mechanical contracting business, and we do a lot of electrical contracting work. During the summer months, when lightning storms are prevalent, we get numerous service calls that are lightning related. Lightning does not need to directly hit your home to cause damage. In fact, a lightning strike two miles away can cause an electrical surge that can damage or destroy electrical components in the home, such as garage door openers, refrigerators, furnaces, air conditioners and very sensitive electrical devices such as audio/video components. We highly recommend a two-way approach to protecting homes from lightning/surge damage. First, a "whole house" surge suppressor should be installed at the service panel. These devices cost approx. $100, and are available from any electrical supply house. You should be able to have one installed for less than $200.

Secondly, we highly recommend that all audio, video and computer components be plugged into a quality surge protector such as a Panamax. There are many quality brands available, but stay away from the cheap stuff that you might find at Walmart or other discount store. Keep in mind that the higher the joule rating the better.

I have used this two way approach for many years, and I have never had any of my electrical components get knocked out by any type of power surge, even though I have experienced violent lightning strikes and power outages.

I have an expensive home theater system, and I will never just plug my components directly into the wall.

 

[Chu Gai]

The multi-approach that Jimmy points out is bound to provide the greatest security. Whole house units are available at one's local electrical supply house, HomeDepot and other building centers, from the internet, and possibly from your local power company. They are available in a wide variety of configurations and types that'll protect your cable, phone lines, and electrical mains. They can then be supplemented by other products, both at the circuit panel and at one's HT setup to provide both redundancy and further security.

 

[Mary M S]

IIRC you ran out to get the Pan 5300 a year ago; any indications it has done its surge suppression job? Do you plug yr Outlaw power amp into it?
Hi Bill! Yes got it about 4 or 5 months back. And thank you for the help at that time! I should start researching ‘whole house’ and redundant protection and continue on. Had been sidetracked by playing with the new gear and getting it sorted. I will try to start researching periodically (as time permits) and after the Christmas expenditures are past, go ahead and complete what I would like to do for max protection.
Yes the Outlaw 770 is run through the Panamax along with everything else including the antenna line and the satellite coaxial. So I have a certain level of protection. When I received the long awaited 950/770 then within short order a new display, new DVD deck, -we had incredible amounts of lighting/wind related power outages for a month or two….so I did rush out and get the Panamax quick! I was particularly worried about the sensitivity of the LCD Sony, having used CRT’s all my life, I did not know if LCD might possibly be more susceptible to damage from these kinds of incidents.
Everything appears to be doing its job well. And as I mentioned earlier a side benefit I did not prior purchase consider is that every time the Electric Co closes the circuit to restart the neighborhood, it often starts, instantly fails a couple of times. The delays on the Panamax keep all the AV from trying to shuttle on/off with great rapidity. I assume this relieves it of a certain amount of stress, as the rest of house popping on/off does not sound/look good! A reason to consider a constant supply storage source…but I have not gone down that road yet.
Electronics can be so sensitive…I see this ‘chore’ as necessary once a home owner is established at one location….then you can upgrade your AV through the years to your hearts content with some peace of mind. You only {hopefully) have to deal with protecting the house once.

 

[Bill Kane]

Mary, sent you PM

 

[RussKon]

Chu,

I agree that a good ground connection is an important part of successful surge protection, but...

A. I think that it pretty apparent that MOV surge protectors can and do fail, regardless of the ground connection!!!

B. If you have a good ground connection, there will be no protection needed on the ground line because the surge will go directly to ground!!!

C. If someone is considering a surge protector, wouldn't you recommend the best technology available? I really don't care what brand you choose - as long as it is series-mode technology. Brickwall, ZeroSurge, Adcom, and Surge-X all offer great technolgy at about the same cost as MOV units. Personally, I would have a problem recommending a surge protector to a friend that might "sacrifice" itself next month in a lightning storm when there are at least 4 companies that offer products that will protect his equipment and not die!

D. Whole house protection is a great option for you homeowners, but for those of us that rent it is not an option. We need portable realible protection for our equipment.

 

[Chu Gai]

You're right, MOV's do fail but you also need to ask yourself the question was it so much the MOV that failed or the designer of the unit?

The basic elements used as protective switches are: gas tubes, metal oxide varistors and silicon avalanche diodes (transorbs). Each has certain advantages and disadvantages.
Because they can withstand many kilovolts and hundreds of Amperes, gas tubes have traditionally been used to suppress lightning surges on telecommunications lines. This is just what is needed to protect against a direct strike. Because gas tubes have a relatively slow response time, this slowness lets enough energy to pass to destroy typical solid state circuits.
Metal oxide varistors (MOVS) provide an improvement over the response time problem of gas tubes. But, operational life is a drawback. MOVs protection characteristic decays and fails completely when subjected to prolonged over voltages. MOV's also have a high capacitance so they'd never be used or should never be used to provide whole house telephone protection.
Silicon avalanche diodes have proven to be the most effective means of protecting computer equipment against over voltage transients. Silicon avalanche diodes are able to withstand thousands of high voltage, high current and transient surges without failure. While they can not deal with the surge peaks that gas tubes can, silicon avalanche diodes do provide the fastest response time. They also don't degrade like gas tubes or MOV's. Thus, depending upon the principal threat being protected against, devices can be found employing gas tubes, MOVS, or silicon avalanche diodes. They are also effective against noise transients.

I'd imagine that someone out there probably has a device that incorporates all three modes in which case you'd have triple stage protection incorporating gas tubes, MOVs and silicon avalanche diodes. The only problem here is that you have to ask yourself, which one is the weakest link? Better IMHO is to not compromise your system with a multi-stage device that has two weak links especially in the context of protection in an apartment. Possibly the only way, and again IMHO, this approach makes sense is when taken in the context of one's own home. But that's another story.
Now what happens if the surge is strong enough to blow up the diodes? Well for starters, you can be damned sure any MOV or gas tube based device would've given up the ghost long ago along with taking down your equipment. In the case of the silicon diodes, you'll have an open circuit. The unit died but nothing got through. They're kind of like the Secret Service for the president. They're designed to take the bullet.
Now what about the series mode protectors such as Ron spoke of? Zerosurge, Brickwall, SurgeX, Adcom have units such as these. They function basically like a low pass, two-wire filter. Now they will work too provided you don't exceed their capabilities. If you do, that surge will have a straight path to whatever it is supposed to be protecting. In all honesty, these devices make the most sense in a home environment where you've installed a shunt mode surge protection device at the mains. In terms of absolute protection, I'd rate them below the silicon avalanche diodes. Let's say you've got something truly truly valuable. Something that in your opinion, can't be replaced. Maybe its some vintage expensive tube setup that would totally break your heart if it fried. If its that important to you, that not even getting insurance money would make things better, then you want the silicon approach.
The leader in silicon based technology appears to be Transtector www.transtector.com. Transector is a sister company to Polyphaser, a well known and regarded company in the way of lightning protection. While they also make MOV devices, it is the silicon based ones that you should focus upon. These use matched silicon diodes, the advantage being that all the diodes participate equally in the surge protection process.
You won't find their products in the stores or through distributers but you can buy them directly from the company.
The DPS-8T has eight outlets and I believe protection for your phone. It's price is $120 last I checked.
The DPS Plus ($160) eight has the features of the above and includes protection for your cable TV. A link to this can be found http://www.transtector.com/documents...s/1451-002.pdf here.
Both products have a five year uncoditional warrany and rather nice, I thought, stagger 3 of the outlets so that one could plug in 3 wallwarts and still have the other 5 free.
Transtector can be reached at (800) 882-9110.
In terms of surge protectors it's the joules, not their cost, that determines the life expectancy of a surge protector. Their effectiveness is determined by the earth ground.
If you wish to provide some modest protection at an outlet and don't want to get into buying a box of some sort, you may wish to consider replacing the outlet with one that contains surge suppression. Example of this can be found below.
http://www.hubbell-wiring.com/librar...s/hub98083.pdf
http://www.cooperwiringdevices.com/c...K_CWD_TVSS.pdf
The above are only examples. Run a google search on the terms "tvss" "recptacle" and you'll see many more products.

 

[RussKon]

Chu,

Thank you for a very detailed response. But...

You can buy technology that if it fails because its overloaded, will still protect the equipment.

Many of the MOV surge protectors out there do not do this. The MOV is placed across the hot and neutral lines. If it blows up, there is NO PROTECTION to your equipment. Some MOV surge protectors are designed to shut down as you assert, but that is NOT the norm for the industy. If it was the norm, why do these companies offer $25,000 or more to pay for your damaged equipment?

I cannot speak for the other series mode protectors out there, but in five years of existence Surge-X has NEVER had a unit fail or any surge damage occur in their customers' equipment. I know that are no MOV surge protectors out there that can make that claim.

 

[Chu Gai]

call your local telco up and see what they use and how they implement power protection. Visit a telecommunications satellite based system and see what they use to protect their mission critical systems. Also peruse some of the available IEEE literature. The story that's painted is a bit different.
There's a whole lot of history to UL1449 but overall, one of its purposes was to ensure consumer safety. The 2nd edition was crafted primarily by people whose companies made surge protectors and to a large degree it was done in response to some of the horror pictures of MOV devices that some have seen at those companies make series mode protection. It was never designed with regards to protecting electronics.
I don't dispute that technology involving silicon technology will not pass the optional adjunct testing. It's not supposed to. It's job is to die and keep your system protected. Now you and I may well differ on what we expect of a surge protector as we may differ on whether an air bag in an automobile should be reused.
As far as lighting surges, which may well apply to those living in certain parts of Florida, Oklahoma, Indiana, etc., they definitely need to think about protection. Russ, I'm not advocating for apartment dwellers to rely upon MOV's as when they fail, you're dead. However when a silicon avalanche diodes fail to a surge your equipment has survived. That's not something to be dismissed without some consideration by the individual.
As far as 6000V, 3000A goes, it all depends upon the duration. Some information that I have suggests that the smallest lightning surge recorded was 5000 amps with a 5uS rise time. The average surge is something like 25,000 amps in 8uS. That will get past your fuses and if you're not protected at the mains, that surge is going to run rampant looking for a way to ground itself. And it'll blast any Panamax you've got there as well as any other surge device. Question is, under that scenario, was anything protected at all? We are talking renters now, right?
Hey look, I'm not taking issue with SurgeX. I'd put them below avalanche diodes in providing absolute protection. I'm willing to have them sacrifice themselves. You're not.

 

[RussKon]

Chu,

25,000 amps will jump through your wiring. It will short itself out before it gets to your surge protector!...

When any piece of equipment that contains an inductive element, such as a motor, transformer or coil is switched off, what is called a "back-emf" is produced. This back-emf, which is caused by the collapse of a magnetic field, is the result of one of the most basic laws of electricity, Faraday's Law of Induction. The voltage thus produced can be several times the original voltage applied to the inductive element before it was switched off, although the duration of these surges (or transients) is very short. Electric cattle fences are energized using this principle - a coil is repeatedly energized (often by a 12V battery) and then the current is shut off. The resulting back-emf can be several hundred volts, as anyone who has touched such a fence finds out!

Any electrical equipment on the same circuit can receive this back-emf surge. It is important that you have surge protection between that surge and the equipment that you want to protect.

 

[Chu Gai]

From UL's website:

...U.L.1449(Second Edition) Adjunct Test units all meeting the Grade A Endurance, Class 1 Performance and Mode 1 No Ground Circuit Contamination.

Well back in the 90's, tests were conducted by EFI (they make surge suppression devices www.efinet.com) using the IEEE 587 (C62.41) protocol which specifies 6000 volt, 200 amp ringwave surges, which are very typical of the indoor surge environment.
In EFI Notes No. 517 it can be found:
"...the filter suppressor, specifically claimed to "cure" the ground potential rise by having no connected components in common mode performed in some cases much worse than all other devices. When subjected to a Category B surge the differential ground potential at the filter exceeded 700 V. When subjected to a Category A surge the filter actually raised the ground potential to nearly 1200 Volts, eight times higher than in the absence of any protective device at all, and the worst response of any device tested."
Peak Surge Voltage IEEE 587 Category A 6000 V, 200 Amp Ringwave
================================================== ========
L/N G/G
No Device>6000 152
Line-Neutral MOV 344158
MOVs (EG3) 352 216
EFI 453 Surge Suppressor < 10 176
ZERO-SURGE Filter 32 1,180 (!)
ONEAC Iso. Trans.< 10 248
================================================== ========
This was not some arbitrary construed test. A bona fide electrical circuit which had its' origin at the main electrical panel and termination where the various surge units were to be tested. Ground potentials were measured simultaneously at the panel and at the surge unit to arrive at the differences. Equipment used were a pair of Tektronic probes and a Model 7603 digital oscilloscope. The IEEE surges were created using a Velonex model 587 surge generator.
Out of the units tested, the ZeroSurge performed the worst. It was worse than nothing and it was worse than a POS MOV unit. As Ricky Ricardo would say, "You've got some 'splainin to do Lucy".
Copies of this report I believe can be obtained from EFI if anyone wishes. Now ZeroSurge and of course SurgeX, seeing as this technology is licenced, are quite aware of these results but to my knowledge they've never enlisted the services of an independent third party, or for that matter, published their own test results in an effort to put the matter to rest. Based upon the above results, it suggests that SurgeX and all the series mode based surge suppressor companies have some reconciling to do. If their products don't contaminate ground, then how does one explain EFI's test results?
All companies would like to present their products in the best light possible. To that end they say things and of course there are the things that they don't say. A favorite argument made by those pushing series mode protection against all mode technology is that having components between ground and hot or neutral results in worse ground contamination because they convert a a normal mode surge to a common mode surge. The results above suggest otherwise. It can't be overlooked that in a series mode unit there's no common mode filtering so one does run the risk that a surge can crawl up that way to knock your equipment out. As to how frequently that occurs, I'm sure there's some data out there that has probability factors to indicate one's odds.
All that said though, Russ, I think series mode suppression bears serious consideration by people for a number of reasons. People tend to be like Ron Popeil...they set it and forget it. Seeing as how many companies make MOV based units that are undersized and that homeowners don't install a whole-house unit, Series mode based units merit thought. Also, as mentioned somewhere in this post, there are other approaches also. Perhaps its my own biases, but when considering protecting my equipment, I tend not to look at the companies that market heavily towards audio. I look rather to the companies that market products to industries such as manufacturing, telecommunications, semi-conductors, etc. Personally, if was recommending a series mode suppressor, I'd urge the customer purchase one that installs at the breakers for the simple reason that it's more effective there. It ain't sexy but sometimes ugly is good

 

[Bill Kane]

Personally, if was recommending a series mode suppressor, I'd urge the customer purchase one that installs at the breakers for the simple reason that it's more effective there. It ain't sexy but sometimes ugly is good.

And to close the circle, after such a box as above is installed, I'd still use point-of-use surge protectors to gain the in-line noise filtering downline as well as the convenience of a multi-plug power center. This can be as inexpensive as the $60-$70 TrippLite ISOBAR6 DBS.

If a whole-house series mode unit isn't readily available, both ZeroSurge and SurgeX make 20-amp panel mounts that will protect one (possibly two) 120VAC circuits. I haven't priced SurgeX, but the ZeroSurge unit sells for $220, not a helluva lot of money for its function. Typically, the panel box is fastened to the studs in the garage near or inside the wall from the main service panel. The incoming circuit romex is hardwired to the panel mount. All downstream wall outlets on this circuit will be protected.