Proper English question...

Discussion in 'After Hours Lounge (Off Topic)' started by Jay H, Aug 6, 2003.

  1. Jay H

    Jay H Producer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 1999
    Messages:
    5,654
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Pittsfield, MA
    Real Name:
    Jay
    Would it be 5 Tours de France or 5 Tour de Frances?


    Phil Liggett says the former and to me it sounds right but anybody have a definitive answer?

    Jay
     
  2. Leila Dougan

    Leila Dougan Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    My vote is for the former, also. My reasoning is that "Tour" is the object and "de France" is the adjective. It's just in a different order because of a different language, but would be equivalent to saying "France Tours". However, in some languages when the object is plural you have to make the adjective plural also. I don't know if it would apply in this case or not.

    I'm sure someone who's much more into grammar than I am will come by and give a definitive answer [​IMG]
     
  3. Jeff_Krueger

    Jeff_Krueger Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2000
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I would think that it is Tour de France(s), only because the entire construction "Tour de France" is the name of the contest and putting the s at the end pluralizes the name even though it is a construction of several words. But of course I could be wrong, it gets a little tricky using the foreign name of something.
     
  4. Yee-Ming

    Yee-Ming Producer

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2002
    Messages:
    4,375
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    610
    Location:
    "on a little street in Singapore"
    Real Name:
    Yee Ming Lim
    "Tours de France". Or "Tours of France", if you like.

    Just as if you were referring to brothers-in-law.
     
  5. Holadem

    Holadem Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2000
    Messages:
    8,967
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  6. Leila Dougan

    Leila Dougan Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  7. BrettB

    BrettB Producer

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2001
    Messages:
    3,019
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Save yourself the trouble and just say "That Lance dude just won that French race thing for the fifth time!"

    [​IMG]
     
  8. nolesrule

    nolesrule Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,084
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Clearwater, FL
    Real Name:
    Joe Kauffman
    "de France" is a prepositional phrase. "France" itself is a proper noun, and unless there is more than one France, it should never be pluralized. However, there has been more than one "Tour" of France.

    A quick search on google showed that the plural is written as "Tours de France" in both English and French.
     
  9. Bill Kane

    Bill Kane Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2001
    Messages:
    1,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    And Lance had many faithful aides de camp on his way to victory.
     
  10. Rob Gillespie

    Rob Gillespie Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 1998
    Messages:
    3,632
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Five cycling trips in France.

    That's more like it.
     
  11. Kevin Thompson

    Kevin Thompson Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This construction is more common than you might think. Consider these examples:

    battles royal
    points of contact
    sergeants-at-arms
    Speakers of the House
    Secretaries of State
    Joint Chiefs of Staff
    Secretaries General
    Sergeants Major (although this is very commonly used other way 'round in the US Army)

    ...and many more, I'm sure.
     
  12. Jay H

    Jay H Producer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 1999
    Messages:
    5,654
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Pittsfield, MA
    Real Name:
    Jay
    Maybe I'll just refer to them as the "Grande Boucles"

    [​IMG]

    Jay
     
  13. Max Knight

    Max Knight Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    May 8, 2000
    Messages:
    531
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Don't forget the hilarious Onion article about ordering two "Whoppers Junior"
     
  14. CharlesD

    CharlesD Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2000
    Messages:
    1,493
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yes it is Tours de France, similarly Grands Prix is the plural of Grand prix.
     
  15. Will Pomeroy

    Will Pomeroy Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Don't forget that if you're only speaking it, and your doing the 'half-assed French accent' thing that everybody does when trying to speak French, it won't even matter because the 's' is always silent when pluralizing a French word. It would still read "He won five toor-duh-frahnse"
     
  16. Cees Alons

    Cees Alons Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 1997
    Messages:
    19,420
    Likes Received:
    312
    Trophy Points:
    9,110
    Real Name:
    Cees Alons
     
  17. MarkHastings

    MarkHastings Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2003
    Messages:
    12,013
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    First off, I am not an English major, and I'm merely suggesting this for fun and the sake of debating...

    Isn't "Tour de France" considered an entity of itself? Making it plural would be like adding the s to the end.

    I say this because I am thinking of product names like "Oil of Olay", if you had two, you wouldn't say "Oils of Olay", you'd say "Oil of Olays"

    Right? [​IMG]

    Actually, would you even plural the term itself???

    You'd most likely say: 5 "Oil of Olay" jars, so wouldn't it be: 5 "Tour de France" races?

    Just something to think about [​IMG]


    p.s. My company actually hosts OLN studios and they did the live feeds of the Tour de France, so (when I get a chance) I'll ask some of the guys at OLN what they think is correct.
     
  18. MarkHastings

    MarkHastings Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2003
    Messages:
    12,013
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I just asked a marketing/producer guy at OLN and he confirmed that the plural is "Tours de France" and not "Tour de Frances"
     
  19. Chris Lockwood

    Chris Lockwood Producer

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 1999
    Messages:
    3,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    > I'll ask some of the guys at OLN what they think is correct.

    I notice you didn't ask the "guy at OLNs".
     
  20. Cees Alons

    Cees Alons Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 1997
    Messages:
    19,420
    Likes Received:
    312
    Trophy Points:
    9,110
    Real Name:
    Cees Alons
    Chris,

    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    Mark,

    "Tour de France" is not (yet?) felt as an entity. It simply means "round of France". So two of them are two rounds.
    Compare "round of beer". [​IMG]

    OK, OK. Here's a better example: Passage To India. If you do it more often, that would be "several Passages To India". Only if you want two of that DVD, you could perhaps say "Can I have 2 Passage To Indias, please?" at the counter.

    Mmm. Let's try 'Champion of the World'. Or 'Lady of Spain'.


    Cees




    (Totally inappropriate example: 'The Muscles of Bruxelles')
     

Share This Page