Projectors... CRT, DLP.... Questions (1 Viewer)

[Jeff AW]

With the costs of DLP's being up there for a "good" one, it makes me wonder. What really is a "good" one? How noticable are the differences between say a $1500 DLP vs. a $3000 dlp vs a $10000 dlp?


Preceived differences or Actual differences. I am not interested in debates like silver cables vs long grain copper cables and what 'REALLY' sounds better. Real world results, not finely tuned ears and eyes of the most discriminating audio/videophile. I for one am not that tuned. Are the differences that noticable to make David T suggest I just settle with a rear projection because with a $3k budget, the quality I am going to get won't be worth me looking at. Will the screen door effect look like I am viewing a movie through a chain link fence. Am I really in minor league only spending $3k, which would make Andy up there way out of the projector league.

Andy maybe you might want to stick to the 13" B&W you have with the rabbit ears.



Please excuse the rant but I find it hard to beleive for 3K you can't get an adequate DLP system. It may not be the greatest, but it would certainly beat watching a movie through my current 32" Sony, and give me a larger picture than going out and buying a 65" RPTV. Even something that my wife, friends and family, the "casual" movie watcher would enjoy looking at...

 

[JasonGarrett]

A lot of people are very happy with the X1. The biggest downside to the X1 is its relatively slow color wheel, which causes some people to see rainbows. Stepping up to the $3-$5k range buys a faster color wheel and XGA resolution. $10k and beyond buys WXGA resolution, even faster color wheels, perfect colors, and ultra-quiet operation.

I'd recommend buying an X1 from a dealer that will let you return it if you don't like it. Odds are, you'll love it. If you don't love it you can try the Sharp M20X or an LCD projector or give up and buy an RPTV.

I spent almost exactly $3k for an LCD projector and a manual pull-down screen, and I have no regrets at all.

 

[Andy TeBockhors]

heh heh JeffAW... rabbit ears rule. Excellent Rant. There are a lot of us out there that just want to get into this hobby... we'll become elitist videophiles later (no offense to you elitist videophiles, I aspire to be among you one day.)

Thanks JasonGarrett for your insight, I'm curious about this rainbow effect from DLP projectors. I've seen references to it here and there, but have yet to see an explanation of what it really is. Is it true that only some people see it? What's up with that?

AT

 

[JasonGarrett]

I've never seen the rainbows, but the only DLP I've seen is a $12000 Marantz. For that price, it better be perfect.

Supposedly only some people see them, and some others get headaches. Lots of others think the people who see rainbows must be crazy.

A DLP makes white by flashing a pixel red-then-green-then-blue so quickly that it looks white. This seems to sometimes cause a very quick rainbow on the edges of bright moving images, or when you flick your eyes across the screen or wave your hands in front of the picture. A projector with a faster color wheel flashes the colors much quicker, making rainbows much less visible.

 

[David Tolsky]

Jason, funny you mention that Marantz pj because of all the DLP projectors I saw at CES, the Marantz stood out in picture quality. I fell in love with this projector. Yeah, it's a little more expensive, but it did have the best picture I saw at the show, and I took a dvd around to several booths to compare there. Now I mean no disrespect to HTF but back to the guy who started this thread: You really need to take your 3K budget over to AVS Forum. These people REALLY know projectors. They will tell you the absolute best pj to get for that money and why. It could be DLP, or it could be LCD. Front projection is getting better and cheaper every year. I made my earlier comment because I personally have a critical eye for image quality. I'm in the film biz. Your eye may not be as critial as mine so don't sweat it

 

[Michael Caicedo]

For around 4k street price you can get a pj that's causing a stir over at the avs forum: the NEC HT1000. For 3k and under, the ones that have been mentioned here, HS10, L300, MX20 are all good bets.

 

[Adam_Bailey]

For DLP projectors, definetly look at the NEC line, the HT1000 was suggested--also look at the LT260.

The HT1000 is an amazing machine, but lumens might be a bit low for your throw distance, something to check into. The LT260 has a really strong bulb, you would be sacraficing a bit of contrast though and color wheel speed (anti-rainbow). I personally did not see a huge enough difference between the HT and LT projectors to justify the 1500 more for the HT. For one, if you are particularily sensitive to rainbows, even the HT might not be good enough and LCD might be a better option. I don't see rainbows very often, so DLP is great for me.

Check out the reviews on projector central too.

It really sucks shopping for a front projector, cause it's almost impossible to find anyone who will show them to you!

 

[David Giles]

Interesting discussion going on here.

Jeff AW, just to throw in my two cents here. I just got my Panasonic PTL300U, an LCD projector for under $2,000. It's awesome!

I've had an HD-ready Mitsubishi 65" widescreen (model #65807) for almost two years, and although it had a beautiful picture that is actually a tad better than the projector in a couple of minor ways, I couldn't be more happy that I sold it and replaced it with the projector.

The massive, beautiful picture thrown by the Panasonic really does give me the HOME THEATER experience. I've also seen the Sony HS10 LCD that you can get (if you can find one in stock) for around $2,500. It has a gorgeous picture also and is definitely worth considering.

Now neither of these projectors are going to look quite as good as a $12,000 DLP machine. But you CAN have a pretty darn nice picture for under $3,000 NOW. And two or three years from now you'll probably be able to upgrade to ANOTHER sub-3K machine that has better picture quality than today's $12,000 machines.

David

 

[Piers C]

David,

Can you share a bit more on the pros/cons you have found with the 300U? Especially in comparison to your previous HD RPTV?

Since you mention the HS10, did you have a chance to compare?

Thanks!

 

[Monte Montoya]

Going back to the In focus X1, My Brother in law got one the other day and I had a chance to look at it. He has it connected to his PC (or HTPC) and It looks great. No rainbow that I noticed. He had a NEC LT 80 that he originally had hooked up to a stand alone DVD player and I could definitely see rainbow effects but when he hooked it up to his HTPC the picture was much better. Going to the X1 it looks even better. The source would probably have something to do with this. I am definitely looking at getting one for myself for the cost. I have yet to see a high end projector but having not seen one and I would be very happy with the X1.

Monte

 

[Jeff AW]

Thanks for all the sub 3k projectors guys, I have alot of research to do now. I would love to check out the X1. The rainbow effect concerns me a little. You know, this is one of those things that makes or breaks your purchase with the wife. Sometimes she can have an unintentional critical eye. Since the only projector people near me is a business shop dealer for the X1, just guessing they will probably have to order in, any online stores have this with a nice 30 day return policy without a restocking fee?

David G. mentioned LCD. I would love to hear more about your lcd, pro's and cons, vs. your 65" TV. Aren't these the most suseptable to "screen door" effect (LCD's in general)? Thats my biggest concern about buying any projector. How about dead pixels? Why did you purchase that over an DLP?

General information for all. With a little figuring, I can set the projector at around the 8', 12' and the 19-20' mark. With those kind of throw distances, How big a picture am a looking to get. My goal is anything as big or bigger(changed a bit from the top)than a 65" RPTV.

 

[David Giles]

Piers and Jeff AW want to know pros and cons of my LCD versus my 65" HDTV and versus DLP.

Now these are purely my opinions and I don't pretend they are THE unarguable truth.

Jeff, you asked why I chose LCD over DLP? Well I can't say it much better than this:

The rainbow effect concerns me a little. You know, this is one of those things that makes or breaks your purchase with the wife. Sometimes she can have an unintentional critical eye.

But I can expand on my thinking. Yes I was somewhat concerned about seeing rainbows, purely as an undesirable picture artifact. But I was much MORE concerned about the reports of headaches and eye fatigue from watching DLP. From what I gather, the number of people that notice the rainbows is fairly small, and the number of people who experience discomfort is even smaller. But I just didn't like the idea of having something that might cause friends or family physical discomfort. I hope nobody jumps down my throat about this, because I'm trying to be very clear that I realize how few people have physical problems. When I first really started looking into projectors, I had the chance to see a $12,000 DLP machine by Dreamvision. I didn't notice any rainbows, and the salesman said this was one of the newer machines with the faster wheel, so rainbows were pretty much eliminated. That's great, but I didn't have $12K, so I was still worried about rainbows in the price range I could afford. I never got the chance to see a budget DLP machine, so I can't say whether they would have bothered me or not.

But I can say this: I recently went back to the same shop and saw the same $12K DLP machine. I noticed rainbows! I guess it's because of all the reading I've been doing, that I knew exactly what to look for. And once I saw them, I couldn't stop seeing them. So if you happen to get a DLP, don't even think about looking for the rainbows, and don't even hint about the effect to anyone else. It seems that once you've seen them, you'll notice them much more frequently. Here's a link to a thread where a bunch of guys got together in Austin last weekend and compared several of the projectors in this price range:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ghlight=austin

What's interesting is how some guys find the rainbows so overwhelmingly noticeable AND objectionable, whereas others hardly noticed them at all.

Of course LCD's biggest weakness is the screendoor effect, with black levels being a close second. My first exposure to LCD was the same day I saw the $12K DLP. The LCD was Panasonic's AE100. My wife and I sat down in front of it and immediately said NO WAY. The screendoor on it was WAY to noticeable. Basically from a seating distance of 1.5 times the screen width back, we could see screendoor over the entire screen in most any scene except for really dark scenes. Now I know lots of people have had the Panasonic AE100 and loved it. But I think you'd have to be really insensitive to screendoor, or sitting really far back. I wanted a REAL theater-like experience, so I wanted to sit pretty close to 1.5 x screen width. Also, the blacks and shadow detail were pretty poor (especially compared to the $12K DLP).

But I'd read all the rave user reviews of the Sony HS10 and the new Panasonic 300, so I was still convinced that in the budget range I was in, I'd rather take a chance on LCD over DLP. Based on specs, and the incredible deal CDW was offering at the time, I ordered the Sony. Then I got a chance to see one at an owner's home. It was beautiful! Screendoor was basically invisible from 1.5 back, and I thought blacks looked considerably better than the older Panasonic. Certainly good enough that I could be happy with them.

To make a long story short, after having the Sony on order for about 6 weeks, I changed my mind and canceled it and ordered the Panasonic 300. They both have advantages and disadvantages, but for my situation, the Panasonic won out.

I don't have any HDTV sources yet, and on strictly DVD, the Panasonic looks as good to me as the Sony did. Right out of the box it has better blacks and shadow detail than the Sony. BUT, it does have a minor flaw, called the scanline artifact, or some call it "peekaboo screendoor" that the Sony doesn't seem to have. If you read up on it, you'll learn everything you want to know about it. Basically, you'll occasionally see a very brief moment of screendoor on certain panning movements. Both my wife and I see it, but it's very minor and not distracting enough to really bother us. She was with me when I saw the $12K DLP for the second time and she saw the rainbows too that time. We both agreed that the rainbows were more distracting than the peekaboo screendoor that we occasionally see.

As far as comparing my projector to my 65" RPTV, to me there is no comparison to the overall "theater effect" I get with the projector. My screen is 110" diagonal, and it really feels like we're at the theater. The Mitsubishi was wonderful, but it still felt like just a really big TV.

The Mitsubishi did have better blacks though. It was after all a CRT based picture, and any of the CRT guys will be quick to crow about how much better CRT blacks are than any current digital technology (and they'd be right).

But the Panasonic has pretty darn nice blacks, and the slight disadvantage doesn't spoil it for me. Besides, as pretty as the blacks were on my Mits, they still weren't quite as good as my friend's 36" tube JVC with some sort of "ultra-black" tube technology. But I wasn't about to lose 34" of screen just for a slight improvement in blacks.

Of course the Mits didn't have screendoor at all. But it did have scanlines! And to me they were just as distracting as screendoor if you let yourself get caught up on them.

Last thing. On the Panasonic 300, with 12' of throw, I'm getting the 110" diagonal screen, and I could go 5 or 6 inches larger if I wanted. You wouldn't want to mount it 19' away, the picture would be TOO large and too dim. With the Sony at 12' the max screen size you could get, according to Sony's spreadsheet, is about 96" diagonal.

Let me know if you have any more questions. I've got to go rest my fingers now.

David

 

[Gordon Groff]

Great post, David! Great explanations of all the pro/cons w/out dissing anything.

Gordon
Waiting to order my HS10

 

[Jeff AW]

David.... Thanks for the great review. I think I am going to purchase The Panasonic 300. What a nice projector, wow. I did alot of researching the past couple days after seeing your post. There are a couple of things that kind of concern me. One, its an LCD wich means it could have dead pixels. What kind of warantee did you get with your projector? Did you have any dead ones right from the factory? Did you buy yours online or did you get it local? I hear there is a business and a consumer version of the 300, if so should I just stick with the 300?

Thanks

 

[Bill Cowmeadow]

Jeff AW,
I bought my 300u online. It's great right out of the box. No dead pixels. easy to set up. I got mine from visualapex.com They delivered on the day they promised, no surprises.

 

[David Giles]

Jeff, I also got my 300 from Visual Apex and was VERY pleased with their service. They told me that if it had any dead pixels, they'd swap it out for me. I haven't noticed any yet, but then again, I haven't stuck my nose to the screen and examined every one (and don't plan on it). I figure if I don't see it from my couch, I'm not going to worry about it.

HOWEVER, my first projector did have some anomaly that caused dark horizontal lines on the right half of the screen (that I COULD see from my couch). I called V.A. and they overnighted another projector. Awesome! Since prices are okay to discuss here, I got it for $1,889 without the free DVD player. Now I wish I'd gone ahead and gotten the DVD player so that I could see if it's any better than my JVC. Oh well, in a year or so something more awesome will come out.

My projector is the PT-L300U, which is the business version and the consumer version is the PT-AE300. According to Projector Central's review http://www.projectorcentral.com/panasonic_pt_l300u.htm (in case you haven't read it), there is no difference in the two. If you find out anything different in your research I'd be interested to know.

The projector comes with a one-year warranty (90 days I think on the bulb), but I put it on my Platinum Visa and they double the warranty.

Let us know how you like it when you get it.

David

 

[Jeff AW]

I figure I am about a 6-8 Weeks away from a purchase. The wife says we need good entertainment center furniture to hide the wires and home theater equipment thats kind of scattered right now. (I'm not complaining )Since I am keeping my 32" Sony, I am looking at entertainment center furniture and something put the screen on. Which it is pretty hard to find "good" furniture at reasonable prices, since I am always the budget orientated person looking for the good deal.

What kind of screens are you guys running? My wife wants me to Ebay a motorized one. For the 110 incher they are ebaying for about $1200. My thought was to get a manual pull down one.. Any thoughts?

 

[Gordon Groff]

What kind of screens are you guys running? My wife wants me to Ebay a motorized one. For the 110 incher they are ebaying for about $1200. My thought was to get a manual pull down one.. Any thoughts?

I've just gone through this. Pricing for a good tensioned-screen electric one was around $2K (I did not check ebay). I ended up with a new DaLite 106" in-ceiling manual (Advantage)unit that I got from Jason Turk at AVS for sub-$500. Not tensioned and not available in "exotic" fabrics, but the High Contrast Matte White seems comparable to the HCCW. I just installed it two days ago.

First impressions. Built like a tank! Well designed. The casing that goes into the ceiling is very heavy-duty aluminum, nicely powder-coated white. The screen return mechanism is very cool - when you release it to go up, it takes over and returns it very slow and smooth so you can't let it "fly up" accidently. PQ? I don't know yet. The screen is flat (Jason indicated you need the tensioning for other materials, not the one used in this screen).

I REALLY wanted the coolness factor of an electric, but for the $1500 difference in price, I figure I can put $5 in a jar every time I pull it down. 300 pulls later, I'll have $1500 in my pocket and still have a nice screen

FWIW,
Gordon

 

[David Giles]

For the 110 incher they are ebaying for about $1200

 

[Jeff AW]

Here is my basic idea for the entertainment center. A wooden unit, tv stand in the middle then two "audio towers" on either side with 2 bookshelves on the side of those. I am looking to get Around 10 linear feet of shelving. That way I can place the screen on the Top Front of the unit. Build a nice enclosure around the screen that lines up directly in front of the center. That way I can pull down the screen infront of the tv and all the audio components when I am watching movies and roll it back up for regular tv and displaying of knick nacks when I am not watching the screen.

Now there may be a problem with remotes being to weak to go through the screen. Idea's anyone? I might even consider getting the screen material and building the electric motorized screen myself, which may be another way to approach it. ... and on a side note, you wouldn't believe how hard it is to find acceptable entertainment furniture. I went to a half dozen stores last night "searching" for furniture. The selections were horendous.