Possible new DLP TV Problem?

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Sidney, Feb 7, 2005.

  1. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    I just bought a Mitsubishi 52725 52" DLP TV. When I watch DVDs such as Saving Private Ryan, and MIB, I notice that the picture is very dark. This very noticeable during scenes that occur at night.. and I can see that half of the face of the actor is so dark it looks black (D day, and night scenes in MIB). I checked my settings on the TV and it was set to auto adjust the settings.. all the settings were nominal except for contrast, it was set to max! Well I adjusted the settings such as brightness and contrast and couldn't get the faces clearer.

    Also note I couldn't get AVIA's Black level test to show up the white moving bars from adjusting my settings.

    Does this sound like a bad TV?

    Since I'm not a expert I'm not sure whether I should just bring the TV back and exchange for a new one, return it or just complain to the store (Good Guys) and have them send someone out to look at it.

    Any suggestions would be appreciated.

    Thanks
     
  2. John S

    John S Producer

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    Nope, on your dvd player see if you can find a setting that says Black level, change it to the other setting.


    There are two standards, the display and source device such a DVD player need to agree.
     
  3. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    I don't believe I have that control on my DVD. Should have thought of that since I had that forum about the AVIA.. I'll check tonight, but I'm pretty sure I don't have that option.
     
  4. John S

    John S Producer

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    Look for it on your display too... I am banking they are not agree'n, even if there is no setting.

    I had to change it on my friends DVD/VCR combo for his new widescreen HDTV too by the way.
     
  5. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    I don't remember seeing black level settings for my TV either.. but I'll definitely look into it. Thanks for the suggestions.

    I'm also planning to call Mitsubishi and get a rep out to my house if I can't get it going tonight. My rep at Good Guy suggested that, he even mentioned that he would go out there too to see if he could help out. Pretty nice of him.
     
  6. John S

    John S Producer

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    Tell him to bring a different DVD player if he comes out, maybe one he knows works well with that display in the store. It is interesting, there does seem to be a few DLP display models this crops up on a lot more than others.
     
  7. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    You know what.. that's a excellent idea. Just in case it's my DVD player.. though I never really had any problems with it before with my old TV.

    BTW I found my setting for black level enhancement for my TV. Tried switching it to both settings but it looks the same..

    My DVD player I couldn't find any ting dealing with black levels. It's a old DVD player, probably 5 years old.

    Another thing I'm going to do is stop by Good Guys and test the DVDs I'm using to see how good the video quality is on their TV. Bring in my AVIA and a couple of Criterion DVDs.
     
  8. John S

    John S Producer

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    Stayed the same??? Like on hte bars with your calibration disc? That is rather odd, but depending on how your sending the signal, that particular setting may or may not actually do anything.

    I have seen devices that will lock to whatever when using DVI/HDMI for sure.
     
  9. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    Greetings

    Some DLP RP units achieve their deeper blacks by crushing them below 10 ire to 15 ire ...

    You move along with a dark object and there is no smooth transition to black ... it just tumbles off the cliff to black.

    It's a cheat and most won't notice it unless watching dark material ... then things look terribly wrong. I don't think this is a defect, but rather a design choice.

    regards
     
  10. John S

    John S Producer

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    Interesting Michael TLV.....

    I've still only encountered a couple of DLP RP's. I will have to pay some close attetion next time over to either of their's homes. I've encountered the black level thing on quite a few different setups though, I just assumed that DLP wouldn't be immune to it.

    I have noticed lots of posts on here regaurding similar black detail issues with DLP's though. I don't think on any of them I have yet read a resolved the issue post.
     
  11. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    John S: Yes no change such as the picture of a dark scene in MIB or Armegeddon, the image didn't look different when I switch the settings of the black level enhancement from on to off or vice versa. I did find that strange.. I would have thought something would change. Maybe it was just not apparent to me. I didn't use any test patterns to see if there were any differences. Probably should have tried, but I don't think it would have made any difference.

    Michael: That's definitely interesting information.. That may make me want to return my TV and get a plasma TV if that's the case with dark scenes. I wouldn't think Mitsubishi would cheat (making black at 10 to 15 IRE) as you described, but it's always possible.

    To make sure I get this straight since I'm not familiar with all the terminology. Lets say a dark object is fading to black on the TV and it falls below a specific IRE (I'm assuming 100 is pure white, 0 is blanking) it would "crush" that image to a lower IRE value hence making it black while on a CRT TV it would still be showing that image fading to black (This is at the instance when the DLP crushed the image).

    Well to make sure I wasn't crazy or too picky on my dark images, I took my MIB DVD and placed it into my computer to view the movie to see how dark and how clear the dark sections of the images should be.. I have to admit that the images (such as faces) were dark due to shadows from the lighting, but I could see a little more detail than what I see on my TV. I'm going to definitely go to the store with my DVDs and try it out there on a few TVs. There's always a possibility it's my DVD player, but kind of doubt it, but I can't rule it out until I have another DVD player to play my videos on.

    Note that the hookups I was using is having the 3 component video cables go directly into the TV from my DVD player.

    Thanks for the help guys. [​IMG]
     
  12. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    Greetings

    I always use the Jail House Tango sequence in Chicago to look at black detail. On some sets that do this "cheating" ... certain Samsungs for instance ... the sequence is scary to look at... since it is devoid of detail ... just large patches of black ... where there should still be some detail.

    Regards
     
  13. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    I think I have that DVD.. I'll give that a try to see if the Mitsubishi is cheating. Thanks for the recommendation.

    BTW Have you seen that problem mostly on DLPs? If the problem I have is with my DLP then I probably would switch to a Plasma.
     
  14. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    It sounds like you have a calibration problem, and/or a source problem.

    It's very unclear as to whether you've calibrated your set properly.
     
  15. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    I'm really hoping it is a calibration problem, but I was adjusting my settings in hope to get a better image (not necessarily calbrating it). Didn't seem to help.. It's always possible the signal source was the problem so that's almost the last step before I say this TV is bad. That's why I was thinking of going to the store and look at their TV try to narrow down the problem.

    If it looks good on their TV ten I would say it's either the TV or signal source.. so then I would get another DVD player and try it out to see if it looks any better.. if not then it's the TV so I would exchange for another one.

    If it looks bad at the store then I would just say it's the TV characteristic and there's nothing I can do about it except return it.
     
  16. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    Whoa.. that's a lot of info in the source option guide you provided Chris.. One part caught my eye about the DVD upconverting mismatch of the SD 601 or the HD 709 decoding when using component video. I'll have to read it more closely again as well as the link since I don't know if it applies in my situation.

    Oh that reminds me.. if I didn't say it before I don't believe my DVD player has black level adjustments. I don't see that option in the setup menu of the DVD player (Pioneer 3 disc karoake.. forgot the model #). Considering the TV is new, and a from a reputable brand, one would think that it has enough range to adjust for the IRE setting of the DVD player.

    Well any case I got to print that document you wrote so I analyze it better. Thanks for the info.
     
  17. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    601 and 709 is a colorspace issue, and will appear as a color decoder error, by using the color decoder test pattern on Avia. It has nothing to do with black or white levels, or grayscale.
     
  18. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    Opps.. looks like you beat me to modifying my post. I believe 601/709 wasn't going to apply to me since I'm use Component cables connected to my RGB. I don't think I'm using YPbPr or digital HDMI YCbCr since I don't recognize what those are. I believe my TV has HDMI input which I'm obviously not using. I'm just using standard analog Red Green Blue. Maybe I'll buy a DVD player to try out to see if it makes any difference.
     
  19. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    YPbPr is component video. But in any case, it's not the culprit of your calibration/source problems.
     
  20. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    Hehe.. feel kind of dumb now. *BLUSH* I'm using YPbPr.. took a look at the back of my DVD player and saw that and slapped the side of my head. I just always throught it as RGB (red green blue).

    Anycase I went to the store.. they didn't have my set on display, but the 63" version of my TV. I played my DVD and it looked so much better on their TV. I could see more into the darkness.. though not by much, but definitely more than before. Since my rep wasn't there I plan to go there tomorrow with my DVD player. My rep is suppose to be the most experienced person there.. at least that's what the other employees say. Otherwise they were useless (not to be mean) in regards with my issue. Too bad I didn't have a extra $3k to waste.. saw the Pioneer Elite series Plasma TV and it looked awesome ($6k+). Well that's off the subject..

    I do believe my TV signal (from my DirecTV box) looks okay, though all the show I saw on TV was filmed at "normal" lighting conditions and didn't see any shows with nighttime lighting (where I get my problems). Since I plan to bring in my DVD to test on their TV.. it will give me a conclusion whether it's my TV or the DVD player. In a way I'm hoping it's my TV.. because I hate to not be able to use my Karoake machine with this TV.. Which means I would have to buy another DVD karoake player. (my girlfriend can sing good otherwise I would have wish it was the DVD player LOL)
     

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