Poll: Reason for the rise in autism spectrum (1 Viewer)

[John Watson]

What Rob Gardiner and ChristopherDAC say.

We live in a world of ever-increasing world verbal bullying, whether by the sociopaths running our organizations, the avalanche of public relations, and the billions of words spilled on the Internet.

It's no wonder some turn away from verbal life.

 

[Drew Bethel]

John, you totally lost me on your post.

Chris, a close friend of the family has a four year old autistic son. They also have a two year old son who has a very limited vocab. They, like you, also knew well in advance that there was cause for concern in early in his infancy. There are also parents out there who have experienced late onset autism, as I'm sure you are aware. I think you can find research to support whatever your beliefs you have. I believe that vaccinations play a major role and I'm willing to admit that my research is biased in that direction.

I wouldn't dismiss thimerosal just yet. Have you seen the latest Columbia University study? As for over-diagnosis, I have a hard time believing that this is the case. The US Dept of Education Data reported the following increases in autism between 1992/1993 vs 2001/2003, I will just list some of the larger cases:

Ohio: 13,795%; Illinios: 79,940%; Missippi: Infinite; New Hapmshire: Infinite, etc. The lowest state was Louisiana at 217%. My point is, if we're over-diagnosing to the tune of tens of thousands percentage point then I have lost all faith in the medical community.

I can understand why parents refuse to look at the causal relationship of some vaccines and the onset of autism. Afterall, we've all been taught from day one that vaccines are safe, not harmful.

Here is what a panel of experts had to say at the Simpsonwood Meeting (7-8 June 2000) in Norcross, GA where the findings of the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) analysis showing a link between Thimerosal-containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental outcomes were discussed in a closed meeting. It took a freedom of information lawsuit to get the transcript:

Dr. Johnston: Page 198: “This association leads me to favor a recommendation that infants up to two years old not be immunized with thimerosal containing vaccines if suitable alternative preparations are available.“ “Forgive this personal comment, but I got called out a eight o’clock emergency call and my daughter-in-law delivered a son by C-Section. Our first male in the line of the next generation, and I do not want that grandson to get a thimerosal containing vaccine until we know better what is going on. It will probably take a long time. In the meantime, and I know there are probably implications for this internationally, but in the meantime I think I want that grandson to only be given thimerosal-free vaccines.”


Dr. Weil: Page 207: “The number of dose related relationships are linear and statistically significant. You can play with this all you want. They are linear. They are statistically significant.”



Dr. Brent: Page 229: “The medical legal findings in this study, causal or not, are horrendous…If an allegation was made that a child’s neurobehavioral findings were caused by thimerosal, you could readily find a junk scientist who would support the claim with ‘a reasonable degree of certainty.’ But you will not find a scientist with any integrity who would say the reverse with data that is available. And that is true. So we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending lawsuits if they were initiated and I am concerned.”


Dr. Clements: Page 247: “I am really concerned that we have taken off like a boat going down one arm of the mangrove swamp at high speed, when in fact there was not enough discussion really early on about which way the boat should go at all. And I really don’t want to risk offending everyone in the room by saying that perhaps this study should not have been done at all, because the outcome of it could have to some extent, been predicted, and we have all reached this point now where we are left hanging…I know how we handle it from here is extremely problematic.” “But nonetheless, we know from many experiences in history that the pure scientist has done research because of pure science. But that pure science has resulted in splitting the atom or some other process which is completely beyond the power of the scientists who did the research to control it. And what we have here is people who have, for every best reason in the world, pursued a direction of research. But there is now the point at which the research results have to be handled, and even if this committee decides that there is no association and that information gets out, the work that has been done and through the freedom of information that will be taken by others and will be used in ways beyond the control of this group. An I am very concerned about that as I suspect it is already too late to do anything regardless of any professional body and what they say…”


And if that's not enough:

In an internal email written 29 June 1999, by former FDA scientist Peter Patriarca offered his colleagues a “pros and cons” assessment of thimerosal statement shortly before its release:

“Will raise questions about FDA being ‘asleep at the switch’ for decades, by allowing a potentially hazardous compound to remain in many childhood vaccines, and not forcing manufacturers to exclude it from new products. Will also raise questions about various advisory bodies about aggressive recommendations for use. We must keep in mind that the dose of ethyl mercury was not generated by ‘rocket science’: conversion of the % of thimerosal to actual ug [micrograms] of mercury involves 9th grade algebra. What took the FDA so long to do the calculations? Why didn’t CDC and the advisory bodies do these calculations while rapidly expanding the childhood immunization schedule?”

 

[Chris]

While there has been some study and some research that has made an effort to make the link, it should also be noted that other studies also tend to explain other linkages (like the rise in areas as equated to the usage via family tree of set drugs in ancestry, etc.)

So, Drew, I'm not trying to totally dismiss the idea, I'm just saying that it is very, very difficult to say "it's the key reason" or even a more significant factor then many other elements to the equation.

I point to this as we can look to statistical data to find that new research points to key genetic elements that are present in children -even before Birth- according to the English Journal of Medicine, as well as two CDC studies conducted within the last three years. More then that, China uses a vaccination technique with a higher mercury content then any other nation in the world AND it is the greatest consumer of fish products, with the average person eating 22 times the amount of their US counterparts.. and yet, autistic rates within China have remained largely stagnant in comparison to the US.. even in larger urban areas, where the percentage of diagnosis has stayed fairly consistent with population.

Many parents make this direct link to autism=vaccinations because many autistic children receive their primary diagnosis at about 18 months to 2 years, which is shortly after they receive their first MMR dosage.

Now, the trick isn't really MMR.. which has a relatively low amount of mercury; rather, it is the current children's flu vaccine, which yearly contains a much, much, much higher dosage how much larger? In your entire run of MMR vaccinations, you receive .4 micrograms of thimerosal mercury, in comparison, a single flu vaccination has 25 micrograms (which is over 50times more PER SHOT then all MMR and other shots combined)

Now, one of the concerns that people do have in relation to vaccines and autism is that there is a belief that some autistic people by nature have a diminished ability in their body to handle mercury, and as such, large dosages may negatively impact or worsen their condition.. but no one at this point indicates a causal link for it to "cause" autism, rather that it may increase the problems.. and even then, the jury is still out.

If you are terribly concerned about this as a major factor, skip the flu vaccines for your children; one years dosage (2 shots) of flue vaccine for a 2 year old equal more then 100 times the thimerosal mercury dosage they will receive in the entire run of MMR and other required vaccines. But keep the MMR, even if there was risk, I'd do it, 100 times over. After having been present when a few hundred people had measles and numerous people died.. yeah, don't really want to screw with that.

I also realize you are a new parent who is taking these issues to heart, and that's good and will commend you on that. I would also advise you the same as anyone; if you are afraid of you're childs risk for autism, you can have them evaluated by a genetic counselor as early as 6 months and about 90% of the time, you'll have an answer.

 

[Craig F]

I believe that the vaccination an diet of the child are totally out the window. It is clearly a brain development issue. The reason that “it manifested after a certain vaccination” is merely coincidence. When and how it manifests depends on what areas of the brain have atypical development.

There is also increased awareness. It is better diagnosed today. There may be some over diagnosis happening. It’s tough to say.

There is enough evidence to show that there is a genetic factor. Hi-tech areas such as Silicon Valley have a large number of people with Asperger’s Syndrome (they tend to be very logical people and make great engineers). This area has shown a significant increase of autism diagnoses. When two people with Asperger’s have children, it could increase the likelihood of an Asperger’s/Autistic child.

 

[Chris]

More articles on MSNBC:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7006980/?ta=y

(FYI, Drew, pay careful attention to the new rates of dosages in general vaccinations, as I point out above, in all currently shipping vaccines, the level of thimerosal is almost non-existant (an entire run at .4 micrograms) as compared to say, a flu vaccine (25mcg) ..

Now, before 1999, that wasn't true, but post 1999, it is.


First, a big part of it isn't over diagnosis, rather, it is a better understanding and the right diagnosis when before children were just perceived as "different" "shy" or "slow".

Second, you're study above is a good reason to believe that MMR shots, etc. do NOT play into the picture.. in 1992/1993 and before, the average run of MMR and other shots contained as much as 50mcg of thimerosal mercury. The same run of shots dispensed from June 1999 through today contains .4mcg - a drastic reduction. So, if the amount of thimerosal mercury present in shots is drastically lower now then it was then, Autism should be in a drastic decline, not the other way around if you believe that the shots are the cause

 

[Drew Bethel]

Chris, you mention some good points. I have never heard of China's program and their low incidences of autism...I will have to look into that one. But high thimersol in vaccines didn't vanish in 1999. Remember, there was no recall and they are still in existence. Only a few states like Iowa have outright banned them.

I'm aware of the flu shot. And, wary of the CDC for recommending 6 month old infants and pregnant moms take it. This (among many other things)is why the CDC has lost all credibility with me. It's like trying to kill a fly with a sledge hammer. I wouldn't trust a CDC-sponsored research as far as I can throw it - including the one sponsored by IOM.



Totally agree. The finger keeps pointing back to vaccinations because it impacts a critical mass. America is one of the most vaccinated countries in the world. And the CDC continues to expand vaccination requirements. It has also been proven that mercury,as well as aluminum, are neurotoxins. Add in the fact that infants do not have a mature enough system to rid themselves of mercury (as adults can) and so the toxicity builds up. We must remember that a baby's rapid brain growth and development continues for two years after birth. Even at age 6, the brain is only 80 percent formed.

As I said earlier, there are two forms of autism, one that is apparent at birth and one that develops later in childhood. The former has not changed in incidence since statistics have been kept. The other is epidemic.

 

[Drew Bethel]

A study worthy of reading:

http://www.ewg.org/reports/autism/execsumm.php

 

[Chris]

{Edit: I will re-write this later to make it cogent, as right now it meanders way to much}

Drew-

Just as a caveat, just as you note your dislike for studies CDC, it should be pointed out that EWG is an environmental lobby that has a very set agenda; it would be folly to believe they would put forward information that undermined there agenda, so of course, they will highlight studies that seem to match their agenda.

However, I want to highlight a few points.

First, as part of their conclusion:


So, Dr. James says if you expose two people to lethal doses of mercury, autistic children will be less likely to fight it off then a healthy person. But you're already starting out with a dose that is considered lethal for christ sake

I've met Dr. James, been to his university, and as a result of your posts, I called down there today to get the text of his study. As Dr. James himself points out, this doesn't directly link shots to autism at all; what it does do is say that outside contaminants may lead to body changes. And more then that, he notes that in his two studies, he pointed out that this is a marked that is -born into- children, and can easily be discovered. The shots do not "make" you autistic in any way; either you have the marker or not, it is, in his mind, a matter of increasing the potential severity.

At the same time, he went on to point out that larger factors in this, much greater then mercury in shots, may be things like latex paint and many wood-floor wax mixes, which create the same effect, only breathable and much more quickly adapted into the blood.

His study was about children who are born with environmental deficiencies, which is a concern. But, if you read through the text of his study, you'll find that his associated risk factors include vaccinations as a potential "part" not the nature of his study, and if his study truly concerns you, you need to make sure not to use latex paint, many floor waxes, wood/deck treating chemicals and a list of lawn chemicals which also cause the same reaction in children. So, get rid of all your painted rooms, wood floors that you wax with anything but all-natural (and in fact, even some natural) and many lawn treatment chemicals.

Children born with bio-deficiences in protection against these anti-oxidant related chemicals may increase their likelihood of other symptoms, in his study, though he points out it's difficult to completely narrow down.

So, Drew, I am not trying to minimalize your belief. For people who believe 100%, that's fine, we'll never influence you. If you want to argue that vaccinations may worsen people born autistic or make it more pronounced, we could have a different discussion; but causation is just not there.

 

[Drew Bethel]

Chris, I'm on the "man's" job so I gotta be quick .

- I'm not 100% convinced of anything. I believe that mercury has a role in those genetically susceptible to it and who can't expel it as efficiently as some can. This mercury can enter the system while in utero, via fillings, toxic waste, sea food etc. I simply cannot cannot discount the fact that infants were receiving mercury dosages of up to 87 times higher than guidelines for the maximum daily consumption of mercury from fish. If my theory holds, you won't see a stabilization of ADD and autism for at least a couple of years since most kids are not diagnosed until 3 and some as late as 6 years of age.

- Have you seen the symptoms of mercury poisoning compared to autism. They are frighteningly similar. I have a book on this home and can post it later.

- If you inject two infants with an aggregate of X amount of thimerosal and one infant sustains neurological damage and the other doesn't, do we really need to find out why? If you put a few drops of mercury in a lake the EPA will declare it harzadous and unusable but it's ok to inject "trace" amounts of it directly into the blood stream of infants?

- I cannot for the life of me find a simple study looking at autism rates in the same geographical location for vaxed and unvaxed kids - participants in epidemiological studies like those of the IOM are vaccinated.

- We are practicing delayed and selective vaxxing with our daughter until this shit blows over. This is the only prudent thing to do. Her doctor is an MD/naturopath and we are currently looking for a homeopath. This is a diffiult decision that many parents are faced with as we speak.

 

[Todd Hochard]

It was a serious, and completely valid, question. I was wondering what your endgame was.

You've answered that with your last post. We would not, and have not, made the same choice. That's all.

 

[Chris]

It's OK I figured the endgame was coming.. I do wonder, though, Drew, if you already have a stated opinion, why not just state it outright at the beginning rather then wait for other viewpoints?

 

[Drew Bethel]

Maybe you missed my first post

Todd, thanks for popping in again..it's hard to keep a thread going when there are only two posters!

 

[Chris]

Ah, I must have missed it

BTW, an interesting side note: the number of kids diagnosed as mentally retarded has fallen drastically since 1950. Meanwhile, the # of children classified as Autistic has risen dramatically.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Ding! Ding ! Ding! We have a winner! Anybody notice that the number of manic-depressives has decreased dramatically and the number of those with bi-polar disorder has shot through the roof? Must be something in the water...

 

[Micheal]

This is true as well. Years ago "manic-depressive" was the key phrase, now it has changed to bi-polar. I rarely hear the term manic-depressive anymore.

 

[Drew Bethel]

I'm not done reading this article yet but it has some good info on mercury poisoning, autism isn't the focus though:

http://www.discover.com/issues/mar-0...ferred-poison/



I haven't seen any studies on this but I'll take your word for it. Nonetheless, if kids were being diagnosed with autism was on the rise from the 50's or 60's, wouldn't they have gotten the diagnostics correct by now? Which is why I don't agree that over-diagnosis is a key factor. And there is under-diagnosis as well, especially for those without the means and medical resources.

Go back and look at my post, comparing the cases between 1990 and 2000. 1990 was not that long ago folks - at least not for an old fart like myself :b

 

[Chris]

 

[Drew Bethel]

Agreed. I did misread your ealier statement.

 

[Chris]

No problem. Edited post above for links/stats.

 

[Peter Burtch]

I agree. All the processed & fast food we eat cannot be a good thing in the long run, especially for the kids.

-Pedro