Polk LSI15 vs. Klipsch KLF30 (1 Viewer)

[Tom Brennan]

Dan---I see this as a discussion of pure objective performence and not preference. I've not gone into a pro-horn rant but simply pointed out, ages ago it seems, that the KLF 30 would have better dynamics, higher output and lower distortion than the Polk.
Let's say we're talking cars, compare a Mustang Cobra and a Mazda Miata. The Cobra is quicker and faster, that's a pure fact. But some people prefer the Mazda for various reasons but I don't think a Miata owner would try to convince anyone it's faster than the Cobra. And regardless of how pleased the Miata owner is with it's acceleration the Cobra owner is bound to think the Miata's acceleration is poor.
Compression is like that, it can be quantified just like a car's top speed and 1/4 mile times. Not that many manufacturers are interested in this kind of knowledge becoming common. For instance JBL Pro gives comprssion specs for their drivers. The 2226, a high efficiency and output 15" woofer with forced air cooling, suffers from 4.6 db of compression at full rated power. That means that the speaker has long since ceased putting out increased SPL but is acting only as a heat-sink. Now if this super-duty woofer with a 4" ribbon voicecoil and forced cooling suffers from compression to this extent you can imagine what happens to a typical hi-fi type 10" driver with a 1.5 inch coil. It's dynamics will be poor.
My rig is horn-loaded above 100hz and below 100hz is augmented with four of the above mentioned 2226s (and the pair of 15" Altec 515Bs are still at work too, reflex loaded below the 100hz where the horn rolls-off). This gives excellent dynamics, that's a benchmark. I've only heard 2 home systems that can better it in dynamics, one the Edgar Titan and the other a ServoDrive rig with Unitys and twin Contrabasses. Compared to this what can a couple of 10" woofs be but poor? I'm sorry but there you go.
www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org

 

[Tom Brennan]

Jason---Agreed, large arrays of direct-radiators can match horn dynamics and output. That's why that Ampeg bass bottom with the 8-10s can kick ass.

 

[Manuel Delaflor]

Dan,
I share Tom ideas when he explain it more or less than this:
Because people are accustomed to hear "tv like" speakers.
A speaker with more realistic dynamics will sound "bright" compared to them, but not because they are "bright", but because all other speakers are muddy

 

[Saurav]

For all those who find horn to be too foward (nice way of saying harsh) what should that be attributed to?

Could be a lot of reasons. Like Tom's mentioned a few times already, this discussion so far was only about dynamics, not about any of the other aspects of sound. Can a horn have really poor frequency response? Yes, and many do. Accentuate the wrong treble frequencies, and you'll have a harsh sounding speaker. There are many other things you could do wrong which would lead to harsh sound. Putting the wrong kind of amp to power a high efficiency speaker can cause harshness too, because amps have their own distortions which can be masked or highlighted based on what kind of speaker it is trying to drive.
BTW, I love your signature line

 

[Michael R Price]

Dan, I have heard of and am very intrigued by the XBL technology. However, BL nonlinearity is not the only cause of compression. I think the other big contributor is thermal compression, in which voice coil heating degrades the electrical 'responsiveness' of the driver. I'm no expert so maybe someone else will clarify regarding other causes of compression.

 

[Mark Russ]

Guys! I didn't mean to start a war here with this thread! You all have some good points. Keep in mind that there are always pros and cons to different philosophies to do basically the same thing, only in different ways. That applies to just about anything, not just speakers. For every government study showing the benefits of something one way, they can also produce another one showing how the exact same thing is bad.
Maybe a horn can physically do some things better, but as Alex pointed out, how much louder than painful to your ears does something have to be ? I mean, my God, you want to keep your hearing, not lose it, so you will continue to be abls to listen to those great speakers.
Anyways, I did hear the KLF 30s yesterday (Sunday), but I'm too tired to write about it right now, I will tomorrow. Till then, PEACE!

 

[Tom Brennan]

Dan---A horn can sound "forward", backwards or in the middle. It all depends on the actual horn flare used. Horns control directivity and are available in many dispersion patterns. I have horn flares that range in horizontal dispersion from 60 to 130 degrees. And they all sound different when using the same drivers.
Yesterday a couple of guys from the club came over to listen to a set of horns that were sent me for subjective evaluation. We also listened to several other horns, all horns were used with the same set of Altec 902 drivers, crossover was set at 800hz. First we used a set of 130 degree McCauley horns with lenses I have, the sound was very wide and spacious, overly so really, with good depth but slightly rolled-off highs. Next we tried the horns that were sent to me; imaging was tighter and more confined but the highs were even more rolled off. A passive EQ network was added to boost the highs (these were constant-directivity type horns which need EQ) but still the highs were slightly recessed and not completely satisfying to me. And with this horn the midrange was less lifelike too, nothing I could nail down, just not as good toanlly, thinner. Then we went to my benchmark, the venerable Altec 511B and the network was removed. Dispersion was narrower but the focus was tighter and the highs, on axis, were just right to me. Midrange had a Techniclor glory. So the horn itself has a great effect and one can use the kind of horn that gives the presentation one wants. I can explain the technical reasons for all this but I'll give you a break.
www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org

 

[Tom Brennan]

Michael---Yes, the heating of the voice-coil causes compression, that's why JBL is so keen on large coils with good cooling. This heating can also change the drivers impedence and cause crossover point shift with speaker-level passive crossovers. THAT'S a nasty little subject nobody wants to talk about. Also you have mechanical compression--the point at which the driver just can't move any more and do more work even if more power is fed it.

 

[Paul Seyfarth]

I going to say that you really need to listen to the speakers, I can't take speakers that are at all "bright." It's painful to my ears, I need very "warm" speakers because I usually have music on just about all day. This is the very reason I got the Polk LSi series, they were very laid back and extreamly smooth. Plus they didn't give up any detail, and a full sounding. They are about the perfect speaker for me.

I try and go to lots of live shows, plus I played an isnturment for 8 years.

Now my brother he has Klipsch, he loves there sound and listens to them for hours. When ever I listen to them I always have him turn them down because my ears can't take it. Even if my ears get used to it, my head will start hurting.

Every speaker I have tested out has sounded very different, I would go and listen to as many as you can. Try and find the perfect one for you.

 

[Matt Jesty]

Just an anecdotal observation, but , i have often found that self-defined "horn-haters" will often prefer them in blind A/B comparisons ,...yes even after PROLONGED listening sessions...go figure....just my observations, ymmv

 

[Dan Hine]

Tom, Suarav and Michael,
It's obvious from this thread and others that I've seen you contribute in that you know much about what you are talking about from a scientific/objective standpoint. But there is a reason that man came up with the word subjective. I guess I just cannot get used to the idea of seeing the words "poor" and "tolerate" as well as others being accepted when refering to one's choice in sound reproduction.
Tom,
Your analogy with cars is understood...to an extent. But Mazda Miata's would not sell if they did not make their owners happy. They prefer a small, sporty car more than a fast animal like a Cobra. Me? I wouldn't buy either of them as I am much more of a truck person. There are way to many things to consider in audio to say one type of speaker is better than another, IMO. From the listener, to the room, the volume listened to, type of music, etc...
I stepped into this thread with the outlook that neither is better, only different. Though I seem to be in the minority...:frowning:

 

[Saurav]

Dan,
You also need to keep in mind that we're only talking about dynamics here. The word "better" can be applied to a whole slew of measurable parameters, not to mention subjective impressions. I can't speak for others, but I'm not saying anything about horns being "better" than other kinds of speakers - just that they have better dynamics and clarity. Ditto for words like "poor" - direct radiators have measurably inferior performance compared to horns when it comes to dynamics, that's all. Is that important? It is, to me, given my tastes in sound and music. If you don't listen to music that pushes your speaker's dynamic capabilities to the limits, you don't need a dynamic speaker, you can easily use a less dynamic speaker and there will be no difference.
Also, there seems to be a common misconception about what dynamics is about - it has nothing to do with playing at high SPL levels. I've seen 2 or 3 posts in this thread along the lines of "how loud do you need it to go" - that utterly misses the point. A dynamic speaker is capable of handling changes accurately - when the music goes from something soft to something loud very quickly, a more dynamic speaker will reproduce that change more accurately than a less dynamic speaker. If your music has a 30dB change, it makes no difference whether your listening volume makes that a 60dB to 90dB change, or a 120dB to 150dB change. In other words, accurate dynamics has absolutely nothing to do with playing loudly, it is about reproducing dynamic changes in music accurately.
Are dynamics important? If you listen to well recorded rock or full orchestral classical music, definitely. Reproducing a rock drumkit accurately requires pretty serious dynamic range. That is, of course, if you're interested in accurately reproducing this aspect of the music in the first place. Some people seem to be content with tonal accuracy (i.e. flat frequency response) and don't seem to care about any other accuracy. If that's the case, then you don't need dynamics.
FWIW, I've only heard one horn speaker, and that was the best system I've ever heard. So, I can't really speak for horns being better or worse than direct radiators as a general rule. I have found speakers with higher sensitivities to sound more 'real' to me, so that is an opinion formed on a sample set greater than one. As far as horns go, I understand the science behind them to realize that they are, by design, better suited for accurate reproduction of dynamics. That's all I'm saying here, so please don't extrapolate that to any general "better" or "worse" comments about speaker technologies in general
I think that is the crux of the issue here - all Tom said was that horns have more accurate (or better) dynamics than direct radiators. People seem to have taken that personally, maybe because they saw it as a statement that horns are "better" than direct radiators. As far as I understand, that's not what Tom said, only that they have better dynamics.
So, to get back to the car analogy - sure, some people prefer Miatas. I might prefer it too, I'm more interested in handling than speed. So, is the Mustang a better car than the Miata? Not for me, not necessarily. Is it a faster car? Yes, it is, because its speed is a measurable parameter that has nothing to do with my preference for the Miata over the Mustang or vice versa. Ditto for speakers - horns are dynamically more accurate. Does that mean they're better? Not necessarily. All it means is that they're dynamically more accurate, which is all that anyone tried to say in this thread.

 

[Dan Hine]

Suarav,
I've only gotten to skim your thread, but it helped a lot. Thanks. I look forward to reading it fully later on. Keep in mind also that I was tired and cranky when I posted that...not a good combination for posting perhaps. :b Well, off to work. Have a good day everyone, see your replies when I get back.
Dan
PS...Thanks for the comments about my signature!

 

[Troy LaMont]

I guess the phrase "to each his own..." would pretty much sum up this thread.
Back on topic, I personally preferred the sound of the Polks to the Klipschs after several audition sessions. The Klipschs were, as has been pointed out here several times, too forward. They sounded bright to me, the Polks on the other hand were very detailed and crisp but they didn't have that in-your-face sound. Of course the Klipschs blew the Polks away in the bass area. I have no problem driving my Polks hard and I have yet to be dissapointed with their performance at any level with any type of music. I run the gamut when it comes to music; Jazz, R&B, Hip-Hop/Rap, Classical, Rock (soft, classic), Pop and Reggae.
On a more personal note; I don't have much experience with too many horn driven speakers, but until I hear otherwise my personal preference is a cone driven speaker. When I picture horn driven speakers I think to all the horrible experiences I have with them at various venues where the sound was damned loud but very piercing and without any clarity what-so-ever (stadiums, amusement parks, outdoor concert halls and auditoriums). I would hope that these type of horns aren't the same type used for home situations, but that's all I have to go on from my experiences. I even think that some of the movie theaters speakers aren't very detailed, IMO. Horns represent volume, intensity and 'extreme' dynamics that aren't for me.
From my experiences, room acoustics, placement, cabling, build quality, amplification and source material play a very important role in how a speaker performs. From some examples I've seen, it's hard for me to believe the credibility of the sound based upon those items listed above. Aesthetics are also very critical to me but has nothing to do with performance. Subwoofers can also be used to augment cone-driven speakers just like they are used to augment horn-driven setups so the point about "...two 10 inch drivers" is a moot point.
As everyone else here has reiterated, try them both and hear for yourself.
Troy
Compressed, non-dynamic, cone-driven LSi15 owner

 

[Mark Russ]

OK guys. Here's the deal. The guy's name is Ron. I went to his house and took a few of my cds. Ted Nugent, AC/DC KISS and Black Sabbath. Also some Pink Floyd for something a little mellower. Ron, as I posted before, has the KLF30s biamped with an Adcom gfa5400 (I think he said it was either 125 watts per channel or 145, I can't remember which exactly) going into the tweeters/midranges and an Adcom gfa5500 200 watts per channel (which I also have one of and would be using with these Klipschs if I bought them)) going into the woofers. He also has an Adcom cd changer and an Adcom preamp, although I can't remember which ones they were. The pre amp has multiple line out outputs, and he had one running to each power amp, then each power amp running to it's respective speaker wire terminal with the jumperstraps removed between the speaker wire terminals. I guess that's biamping, I don't know.
I just don't see why someone would need 325 or 345 total watts per channel thought going to a speaker with well over 100 db senitivity. This system was LOUDER THAN HELL!!!!
You could not turn the volume on the preamp past 12:00 as you simply couldn't take it. 10:00 was even too loud. I liked about the 9:00 setting best. I have no doubt that with this set up, you would surely eventually lose your hearing. Bass was excellent. It almost sounded like a seperate sub. Highs absolutely sizzled. They really seductively knock you out at first.
However, I will not be buying them. After a while, I felt that they were fatiguing to my ears. I think that they are definitely much, much brighter and "in your face" than the Klipsch KSP series. That may have been at least partly because of the Adcom electronics though, I don't know.
I guess the best analogy I can come up with is this. They are like a drop dead gorgeous girl you are VERY interested in and attracted to. However, when you finally get her out on a date, as the night goes on, you realize that she has a lot of problems and baggage (such as being an alcoholic, divorcee with a stalking ex-husband, credit problems, etc.) and is definitely NOT someone you would want to get involved with in a commited relationship. You only want an occasional one night stand, but not a long term daily relationship.
This is only my take on it. I'm sure some will strongly disagree.

 

[Troy LaMont]

Mark,

Thanks for the assessment. Good luck in getting some speakers.

Troy

 

[John F. Palacio]

Mark says: "you realize that she has a lot of problems and baggage (such as being an alcoholic, divorcee with a stalking ex-husband, credit problems, etc.)"
You've had this problem too,huh?
I mean.... listening fatigue

 

[Manuel Delaflor]

Mark,

This is just an idea. If you can, go to a live performance, with pure instruments nothing electronic around, like a jazz club or better yet a concert hall. Listen carefully.

You will note that instruments are "bright", trumpets, violins, even the piano at close range, all the instruments are incredible dynamical and can sound really harsh!

That's what a horn can replicate and "normal" driven speakers can't.

 

[Alex F.]

Tom:

It's not my responsibility to bring you up to speed on several decades of strides in driver technology. For a start, go read the technical articles and thorough loudspeaker tests in Audio magazine that ran from the 1950s to late 1990s. Or check out the steady progress in drivers' measured performance that have been published in Stereophile. Other sources of info abound. You have an enormous amount of literature--a good half-century--on which to catch up. I cannot provide it all in a post, for heaven's sake.

Another thought comes to mind. Call up John Dunlavy (719-592-0859) and tell him his loudspeakers--conventional cones and domes--have poor dynamics. He's a personable fellow and would enjoy talking about it. Get as technical as you'd like--he is both a theoretical and applied-science physicist.

I do have a question. You insist that the Klipsch KLF-30 has better dynamics than a Polk LSi. Please explain how, in the critical voice range (the KLF-30 crosses over at 825 Hz), the pair of Klipsch 12" drivers can start and stop more rapidly than the pair of Polk's 5.25" units. I ask on the assumption that vocals and the very heart of the midrange have some importance in music reproduction.


Manuel:

"All other speakers are muddy" and "TV like"? I guess you feel pity for the unfortunate folks stuck with their "TV-like" and "muddy" Viennas, Sonus-Fabers, Magneplanars, Wilsons, Dunlavys, etc.? What non-TV-like speakers do you use instead?

By the way, I listen to live music on a regular basis. From classical to pop to rock to Broadway musicals and shows. I have yet to hear any horn system (and that includes the holy-grail of horns, the Klipschorns) reproduce the sonics of a CD or LP as well as a top-flight moving-coil, planar, or electrostatic system.

 

[Jason_Me]

Alex F


I think you need to listen to some Avantgarde horns. Klipschorns are not the holy-grail.