Please help on feasibility of this Bass Mgmt solution

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Myki Cantero, Jul 16, 2002.

  1. Myki Cantero

    Myki Cantero Stunt Coordinator

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    I have a Marantz SR7200 receiver, B&W DM601 S3 fronts, LCR60 S3 center, and ASW 300 subwoofer. They're all in a small living room. My sub is connected via the Sub out of the receiver only, am NOT using the sub's crossover. I am totally happy when watching DVDs, especially concerts in DTS. Perfect!

    The 601 has a freq. response of 60Hz - 22kHz ± 3dB. I have set all my speakers to small. I'm quite happy with the 100Hz crossover setting of the Marantz.

    My problem is this: I LOVE the Source Direct mode of the 7200 when I listen to music. It is really audibly cleaner, tighter, better detail, punchy bass. BUT, the 7200 doesn't output anything to the sub in this mode. So I miss out on the < 60Hz bass sound.

    My PLAN:

    1) Connect receiver sub-out (LFE) to sub's left channel input.
    2) Connect receiver pre-out to a Y-connection, and then connect it to sub's right channel input.
    3) Set sub crossover to IN (activate internal crossover) and set to 60Hz.
    4) Set all speakers to SMALL.

    When listening in Source Direct mode, I assume I will now get the < 60Hz sound in my sub.

    Possible problem: When watching movies, will I get a messed up or inaccurate sound in the < 100 Hz range? Is it possible for the LFE channel to output frequencies greater than 60Hz?

    Is this feasible? Will it work? Or will I just waste my time and money (to buy the Y adapter and audio cables).
     
  2. Paul Clarke

    Paul Clarke Supporting Actor

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    Myki,

    I don't know if what you suggest is workable (just got through eating and consequently the ol' grey matter is low on blood supply) but have you tried simply using the 6 channel input? This is what I use on my H/K 510. Because I'm also using my DVD player for 2 channel (I know, I know), I can control whether my system runs subless or not by changing the Down Mix setting. I have full range towers so I often run subless but with a sub active on my system using the 6 channel input the low end still remains fairly controlled.
     
  3. Myki Cantero

    Myki Cantero Stunt Coordinator

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    Paul,

    My brain is also low on energy because I haven't eaten yet. :) Are you referring to the 6-ch input on the receiver?

    Unfortunately, I only have a Pioneer DVD 525 which I also use for music. It doesn't have a 6-channel output. It only has a digital coax out and an optical out.

    Although the 7200 has a 6 channel pre-out which is what I was referring to on using. (At least the front L, R and the subwoofer)
     
  4. Paul Clarke

    Paul Clarke Supporting Actor

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    Understood. You're certainly not going to get any subwoofer action without a sub-out on the player. Too bad...it's a decent work-around.
    But I'm still confused...must be my wife's meatballs. Part 2 of your plan...which pre-out are you speaking of? It sounds like you're saying you have BOTH an LFE out and a Subwoofer out. Is this correct? If not, which pre-out are you going to Y connect and send to the sub's right channel?
    Apologies for being so dense. [​IMG]
     
  5. Jason Wilcox

    Jason Wilcox Supporting Actor

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    why not just wire your mains through your sub.....set the mains as large....and set the bass management to mains instead of sub
     
  6. Myki Cantero

    Myki Cantero Stunt Coordinator

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    Paul, sorry, come to think of it, i missed out on details.

    My receiver has pre-outs for L & R Front, L & R Surround, Front & Surround Center, and Subwoofer. (6.1)

    I plan to use a Y cable for my L & R Front and attach it to the Right Channel input of the sub. (planned)

    I will then connect the Subwoofer output to the Left Channel input of the sub. (current connection)
     
  7. Myki Cantero

    Myki Cantero Stunt Coordinator

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    Jason, hmmmm... interesting.

    But will wiring the main speakers through the Sub cause signal degradation? I guess it's just because the manual of the sub describes the using of line inputs as "preferred" over using the speaker in/out.

    Also, does it automatically mean that if I set my Subwoofer to NONE, when I play DVDs, the discrete LFE channel will just be mixed with the FRONTS?

    I'll borrow some extra speaker wires and will give this a try. I'll also try my "Plan" but without using the Y-adapter.
     
  8. Jason Wilcox

    Jason Wilcox Supporting Actor

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    I know you can send the LFE to your mains...but i'm not that familiar with your receiver. You'll just have to skim through the manual.

    As long as you use some 12g or 14g speaker wire their shouldn't be any noticeable signal degradation.
     
  9. Mark Tranchant

    Mark Tranchant Stunt Coordinator

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    LFE channel may contains content up to 120Hz. Your proposal should work fine:

    1) in normal mode, the L/R pre outs will only contain >100Hz content (plus a bit below that as the Marantz's crossover rolls off). The sub will only respond to the Marantz's sub out signal, which will be LFE plus
     
  10. Myki Cantero

    Myki Cantero Stunt Coordinator

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    Jason, once I get extra speaker cables, I can try wiring my mains through my sub. I guess this will give a better integration since I will only be using the sub's crossover. Just a bit costly if one has expensive speaker wires and the sub is not near the receiver. :-(

    Mark, thanks for the advice.

    I believe you are right about that Y adapter. But I dare not build or buy a passive mixer. I could of course try it without the Y adapter and just use the Left Front channel pre-out... But you're again right about that "hole". If I increase the sub-crossover to around 100Hz, the hole will be lessened... hmmmm

    BUT, I like your last suggestion of setting subwoofer to NONE, speakers to LARGE, and using the pre-outs. It's like Jason's suggestion but this one I can try at once since I don't need to buy extra speaker wire.

    I'll tell you guys how my tests work out after the weekend. Thanks!
     
  11. Mark Tranchant

    Mark Tranchant Stunt Coordinator

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    Increasing the sub crossover will give you a different problem when in direct mode: frequencies from the B&W's low-end rolloff point to the sub's crossover point will be played through the mains AND the sub, giving a boomy bottom end. So you'll have either a hole in normal mode or a peak in direct mode...

    Using just one of the preouts (L or R) will only work properly for bass that is equally present on the two sides (i.e. mono).

    I think my pre-out only suggestion is the simplest for you, IF you can find a suitable crossover setting that integrates the B&W's roll-off and the sub's roll-on (?!) well. Note that you must set the centre and surround speakers to SMALL for this plan to work as intended, so that their sub-100Hz content is routed to the L/R pre-outs.

    Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
     
  12. Myki Cantero

    Myki Cantero Stunt Coordinator

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    I just borrowed some great music CDs from my client so I can test my system over the weekend.

    Mark, once I turn the subwoofer setting to NONE in the Marantz, all the speakers are locked to LARGE. But since the subwoofer is NONE, I am assuming that the LFE will be sent to the other speakers.

    However, I'm a bit nervous at the result of the LFE being sent to my bookshelves. Also, I read that doing so might make the bookshelves loose the punch at the mids.

    I'll still try these suggestions out and report back to everyone. Hmmmm, maybe I should have just gotten the DM602 S3 so I can have more bass. :-(
     
  13. Mark Tranchant

    Mark Tranchant Stunt Coordinator

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    No, if you set the sub to NONE, only the fronts should be forced to LARGE. At least, that's how my SR4200 works: forcing all speakers to LARGE is a crazy policy.

    You're right, the downside to my plan is that the full frequency range including LFE will be sent to the B&W's. This should not damage them so long as you don't play at ridiculous volume, but you will increase intermodulation distortion (one note affecting others).

    The 601's are ported, aren't they? You could try blocking up the port with somthing like a tightly-rolled sock. Vented speaker drivers are "unloaded" below their box tuned frequency, which leaves them vulnerable to high excursions at low frequencies. Sealing up the box would control LF excursion, although it would raise the low-end roll-off point so you'd need to play with the sub crossover again.

    If it's any consolation, I use some 12-year old Wharfedale Diamond IVs as my main speakers (small room, semi-detached house) with no sub: these are ported and didn't suffer any ill effects on the couple of high-volume tests I ran.
     
  14. ling_w

    ling_w Second Unit

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    THis whole scheme is recommended by Magnepan for their center channel speaker. Except it involves 1 channel so there is no Y connector issue, and the crossover freq is 125-160hz, above anything available in the LFE.
     
  15. Myki Cantero

    Myki Cantero Stunt Coordinator

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    Ok, things didn't work out so well.

    I tried all the suggestions above except the one with wiring the mains through the sub-woofer. The general result is that it would sound good in one mode, bad bad in another.

    If I set the sub's level correctly for let's say Source Direct mode, when I switch to maybe 5-channel stereo, it would be a bit messed up at the lows. And vice-versa.

    So now, I decided to just use Direct Mode when I listen to music without that much bass. This will have to do until I can get a bigger living room, and bigger front speakers... like maybe the DM601 S3. :)

    Thanks to all those who helped. It was worth trying.
     
  16. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    What you really need, IMO, are DM602 S3s (you said you already have 601s). ~49Hz would probably do for music in s-direct. What you are hearing is your mains playing full range, and they do a better job at midrange than your sub. I completely agree with your observations with music, which is why I turn my sub off and listen to music in S-direct also.
     
  17. Myki Cantero

    Myki Cantero Stunt Coordinator

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    You're truly right John.

    So to those planning on buying a Marantz x200, consider getting main speakers that can handle the bass. Don't say that you have a small room, or your scrimping on your budget. And when you do, you will truly be REWARDED, immensely, with the Source-Direct feature.

    I was planning on getting the DM600 S3 for my rear speakers, but now, I am convinced to save up for the DM602 S3, and I will move the 601 S3 to the rear. But not in a few months, am still recovering from my expenses and my poor investments.
     

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