please help: is it my TV? (1 Viewer)

[Micah Cohen]

Last night I was watching a DVD (SD) on my glorious Sony KDS-60. The movie was FLAWLESS, I mean, that was the title of the disc; a movie with Michael Caine.

Anyway, the image stuttered throughout. Not pixellating, just not tracking correctly, showing a digital delay, sort of. Motion was jumpy.

I set about rearranging my original settings, Motion Naturalizer, etc, to try to fix this, but nothing worked.

Then, I changed the [admittedly cheap Pioneer DVD player] from Progressive to Interlaced (connected via "component" to the TV) and it seemed to fix the problem.

Why? Is this a TV thing, or a DVD-player thing? Isn't Progressive supposed to be better than Interlaced? Could it be something unique about the DVD itself, the disc?

Advice, instruction, lecture... all welcome here. Thanks!

MC

 

[Ed Moxley]

Does it do it with other discs too?

 

[Micah Cohen]

No. As far as I know.

I have only had the TV for maybe two months. But the settings on this TV are complex, to say the least. Multiple layers of menus. I have calibrated it, and set it so that it seems ok most times.

This disc was extreme, tho. Never seen it this bad.

I'm thinking it's my DVD player. Crumby old Pioneer? By why the shift when changed from P to I?

MC

 

[Ed Moxley]

If it only happens with that disc, I'd say it's something about that disc. If it's the player, it should happen with other discs too.

Don't know why it did that changing from progressive to interlaced..........
Sorry I can't help more. Maybe someone else has some ideas.
Good luck!

 

[Cees Alons]

No, not at all. It's the same.

If the DVD is interlaced and has a high bit rate, your player may have some timing problems converting it to progressive. Or, perhaps the 3:2 pull down is a bit problematic on that disc.

If it plays flawless- (OK, couldn't resist) -ly in your player's interlaced mode, than I would choose that setting, without aberrant thoughts about progressive allegedly being superior (not in this case anyway!).

It's not very probable that your TV is the culprit.


Cees

 

[Micah Cohen]

"Timing problems" is exactly what this effect looked like!

Ah. So... I should leave the DVD player outputting Progressive, and expect sometimes that some discs may need to revert to Interlaced?

Or, better to leave the DVD player outputting Interlaced at all times?

So, in the case of playing SD DVDs via component from this Pioneer player to my RPTV, I might want to consider leaving the player set at Interlaced? This won't "cheat me" of any PQ during playback?

Should I move this thread to a PLAYER forum instead of a DISPLAY forum?

THANKS for you continued input!

MC

 

[Cees Alons]

Micah,

If we're talking about film it doesn't make any difference how the scan lines are transfered to the display: one after another, or all odd lines first and then the even ones. So in that case there would only be a difference between progressive and interlaced if the display is an old-fashioned CRT and will only accept interlaced: then all progressive input will be wrong.

Or if the CRT translates progressive to interlaced itself and may do it wrong now and then.

If the original content is TV, there's a theoretical difference between the odd and the even fields of the frames, because the camera will have been "taping" the whole odd frame in real time - and then the whole even frame after that, also in real time. So merging those two could be slightly problematic in that case, leading to the conclusion that interlaced is the better one.

So: normally, I think your set-up will be fine with progressive, and could make you feel good, but occasionally a forced interleave may be needed.

On the other hand: if you don't see much (or any) difference yourself, a fixed setting of interlaced may be the best and most practical choice for NTSC material (not for HD!).


Cees

 

[Micah Cohen]

I really appreciate your help!

What you're saying here (I'm just trying to be clear, excuse the non-technie, please!) is that I'm watching SD DVD material, not HD, and so my player output does not even need to be Progressive? (Would watching "progressive" connected via HDMI help? Change anything? Would buying a Blu-Ray player, playing SD DVD on it, connected by HDMI, change anything?)

I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR PATIENCE with my nit-picky questions. But, as usual, this is the best place to turn for this kind of real-world help.

I guess what I might have to do is go play for a while, watch a few things, on P and on I, and switch them about and see what looks best.

What I'm ultimately saying is... I am happy this is not my TV's failing.

MC

 

[Cees Alons]

What can "help" (in my own eyes) would be: a very decent upconverting, not just converting 480i -> 480p. If your TV is a 60" plasma or LCD doing that, the result may depend on the quality of the upconversion unit (I'm talking about 1080i or -p now, or, reluctantly, 720p).
I didn't look up your TV, so I don't know about that specific set.

Buying a BD machine may indeed do a similar trick. Currently I own a Toshiba HD-A1 (the HD DVD format is "out", however) and that player is known for its excellent upconversion to 1080i. And I have a European unit (for my R2 DVDs) doing 1080p as well.

Soon I will add a BD-player, and for me the upconverting "power" of that machine won't be extremely important (because I already can do it), but if you're considering that path, you should also read reviews about how good they are in that respect.

Buying a BD-player that will also do a brilliant upconversion of SDVDs, will preserve your current DVD library and (slightly

) diminish the pressure to literally buy each and every movie you already own, if it happens to get released on Blu-ray.


Cees

 

[Micah Cohen]

It's the Sony KDS-60A3000 (the last model, the very last model), rear projector, 60". It's pretty amazing. But, if knowing that helps you better structure your (above) answer, it would help me.

I am fairly sure that the SD DVD player I have is merely 480 (I and P), because I see that on the screen when I go thru TV input menus.

What you're saying is, of course, that a better DVD player (or, a BD player) with a higher upconvert number (up from 480), connected the same way (or, via HDMI?) directly to the TV, will improve my TV experience.

I'm on the right track, eh?

Again: Appreciating your tolerance with my nit-picky questions and endless clarifications.

THANKS!

MC

 

[David Willow]

One suggestion... Try turning off all of the picture 'enhancements' in your TV menu (like Motion Naturalizer). Sometimes these can make the picture look worse. Turn them off in your DVD player as well.

 

[Micah Cohen]

Ok. Later today I might take some time to play some more with the equipment, switching settings and watching the same scene over and over, like that, to find the correct look for this cheap DVD player.

I'll report back.

MC

 

[Cees Alons]

Micah,

Your TV is a FullHD set, I've looked it up now.
It can handle 480i and all the way up to 1080p. It will upconvert to its native high def resolution whenever it can. In theory there are situations when an SDVD player can do the job on a specific DVD slightly better than your TV (in case of certain type of 3:2 pull down errors). But until you get yourself a BD player (and choose one that does a terrific job upconverting SDVD), you'll probably be better off by allowing your Sony TV to do the "work".

However, everything is "in the eye of the beholder", so it's never wrong to do some practical tests of your own, and occasionally repeat that.


Cees

 

[Micah Cohen]

I started with everything "off." On the TV: no Motion Enhancer, no Motion Naturalizer and CineMotion set to "off." On the DVD player, set to I output.

Then I played a few fast-motion scenes. The art museum pursuit in THE THOMAS CROWN AFFAIR remake, the narrow-street car chase in RONIN and the opening moments of CASABLANCA (when people are running from the police).

I played the scenes many times each, resetting each setting in different ways and recording each reset on a notepad.

I ended up with the DVD player set to P and the TV settings all remaining "off." This seems to be fine. No timing issues, or pixelations or motion blur at all. (These changes did not affect my previous regular color calibration.)

One thing I regret is sending the original problem movie back to NetFlix... I should have hung on to it and used it to do these motion calibrations.

Any suggestion at this point on a Blu-Ray player that does "a terrific job upconverting SDVD"? If so, I'd be interested in your opinion. (Also, is hooking it up via HDMI a better way to go?)

Otherwise, again: THANKS to all for the advice in the thread. Excellent.

MC

 

[Cees Alons]

Micah,

Yes, HDMI is the way to go, if you can.

I'm not aware of a current BD player (except the PS3) which will do a *terrific* job re. upconversion. The new Panasonic DMP-BD55 (will arrive on the market as a successor of the current DMP-BD50, after the next CEDIA) was mentioned in a private conversation as doing a great job in that respect. But you may want to wait until more direct reviews are available.

Many people rave about the PS3, but frankly, it would no longer be my personal choice given the new models about to hit the market. But, yes, that's rather personal.


(Too bad you don't have the original problem disc any more. But, at least you don't have any problems any more either, apparently.

)


Cees

 

[Micah Cohen]

Excellent. Thanks to all, Cees especially, for your great info. I really appreciate it. (Since working in the industry, writing product manuals, I know that sometimes the industry itself is much too lax about educating consumers about these complex technologies; thus these seemingly basic questions sometimes don't get answered clearly. Hooray for HTF. I hope this thread helped more people than just me.)

I will wait a while before upgrading to an upconverting BD player, since I don't plan to convert my collection to Blu-Ray anyway. (I wonder... is there an SDVD player that "upconverts" from 480 to... 720? That would allow me to buy a new DVD player and get a little benefit.)

THANK YOU!

MC

 

[Cees Alons]

Micah,

They certainly exist, e.g. the Oppo about which some people on our forum have been very enthusiastic. I have no personal experience with those, though.

Another solution would be a general image processor, like the DVDO VP50. I have one myself, it's certainly a bit more expensive, BTW, but it converts almost anything to anything. Including S-Video to HDMI, etc.


Cees

 

[Mort Corey]

Your display is already upconverting whatever signal it's getting to it's native rate (which I assume is 1080) An Oppo player (pretty nice for the price BTW) will allow you to upconvert SD DVD's to 1080 over its HDMI connection whic (in theory anyway) should give you the best picture possible with the lower resolution software. That said....it can only be so good since there isn't the same amount of O's and 1's on a SDDVD vs BDDVD

 

[Micah Cohen]

Excellent! OPPO! I will look into this! OPPO!

MC