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Plasma really worth it? (1 Viewer)

Steve_L_B

Stunt Coordinator
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Sep 26, 2002
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133
Mando-R,
I disagree with your comments about the Sony GW. I looked at both the GW II and Samsung DLP at several dealers before I finally bought my Panny plasma, and found that they had much worse PQ due to artifacting and colorbanding issues. Also, the GWIIs black level and viewing angle limitations made its PQ much worse overall than than the Panny plasma's. I agree that there are indeed some awful looking plasmas out there (some of the Sony's come to mind), but there are also some terrific ones that can compete well with any other current display technology.

One other point, Rich never stated that there were NO motion artifacts, he said that it was "virtually a none-issue". Most people, myself included, never see objectionable motion issues (and I watch a lot of sports), so it is misleading to make it out to be a severe problem.

Everyone has their own opinions about what looks best, and that's great. As was stated previously, that's why these forums exist.

Regards,
Steve
 

Rich H

Second Unit
Joined
May 22, 2001
Messages
283
Mando-R Wrote: I looked at your screenshots and even though they are scaled I can still see artifacting heavily in Episode 2 of Star Wars.

Would you mind elaborating? What kind of artifacts are you seeing in my screen shots? More especially, what types of artifacting are you seeing in my screen shots that you would attribute to plasma performance? (I certainly wouldn't proclaim the screen shots perfect. But point me toward screen shots that are not problematical).

"I'm not going to go into detail, because looking at your posts, you always give the question a runaround, and never really answer with a straight forward response."

"I know what you're going to say, Rich, because I've dealt with people like you."

Well, nice to meet you too. What was that again about "no offence to anyone?" You are the first person ever to accuse me of being evasive so excuse me if I go right ahead and take offence. :-(

"I've seen plenty of plasmas come back at Circuit City, and the owners go and pick up a Grand Vega because the image quality is better and the money is right."

The Sony GW is a very nice display. But let's examine your comment that the Sony GW offers "better image quality" than can be found from the best plasmas (I'll use Panasonic, for reference). I certainly wouldn't like to be evasive, so I'll be sure to go into detail :)

The Sony GW cannot achieve the contrast ratio and deep black levels of the best plasmas (for instance, Panasonic plasmas). To quote Gary Merson in his Perfect Vision article on LCD displays: "Simply put, all LCD transmissive rear projectors have lousy contrast ratios. With LCD RPTVs, contrast ratio is so poor that Sony does not publish a figure for its Grand WEGA line, and neither does Panasonic for its LCD models." Whereas, the Panasonic plasmas garner raves for having the best black level performance of any Digital display (measurably within the league with a pro CRT monitor, as I mentioned before).

The GW's poor black levels relative to other technologies are an objective, measurable fact, which has subjective consequences for the image. Dark areas of an image, especially night scenes, are left looking illuminated with a faint bluish glow. This flattens the contrast in images with large areas of black - especially night scenes. As you lower surrounding light levels to "home theater" style viewing, the illuminated, blueish black levels become even harder to ignore. In fact, I find the black levels of the GW too compromised even in bright lighting conditions. Whereas the black levels of a Panasonic plasma allow for deep, rich images even in low light conditions.

And about that bluish glow. It's an virtually inescapable problem with LCD technology. It's especially evident in dark areas, but also leaves a bluish cast over the entire image. Colors are known to be problematical on the GW and other LCD RPTVS - just follow discussions from GW owners in the AVSforum. Or listen to the experts; to quote The Perfect Vision: "Color uniformity is also poor with LCD RPTVs. When I generate a solid color field on the screen of an LCD rear projector, I observe areas of different hues."

The Panasonic plasma, with it's perfectly even illumination, suffers no such problem. (Remember, also that Tom Norton measured the best color tracking of any display he'd seen from a Fujitsu plasma, which is based on the Panasonic brand).

Then there is the fact that the GW, like any RPTV, suffers severe luminance shifts depending on your vertical viewing angle, and visible luminance shifts with varying horizontal viewing angles. The only person with a hope of seeing an LCD RPTV display at it's best is someone sitting right in front of it. (And I find the uneven illumination from the GW is noticeable even from directly on axis, and it bothers me).
Plasma does not suffer from this problem, offering perfectly even brightness, for any viewer from any angle. Everyone in the room gets an accurate picture.

And of course the GW is not free of the banding and false contouring found in many digital displays, including some plasmas.

So, if you find relatively poor black levels, uneven color illumination, uneven brightness and an ever-present blue color cast to be acceptable problems in a video display costing big bucks...great! But to many others like me, those problems affect my enjoyment of the picture, and a Panasonic plasma suffers from none of those picture problems.

Regarding motion problems on the Panasonic plasmas: First, if you based you conclusions on seeing plasmas at places like Circuit City...well...you should know better. However, if you indeed saw the Panasonic plasmas well calibrated, hooked directly to good sources, and could be sure the motion problems were inherent in the plasma and not the source (or source gear), then I'm not going to argue what you saw. I'd only point out you are, to say the least, in the minority. I'm sensitive to motion artifacts too, particularly flicker, and I'll see a CRT flickering that does not bother someone else. But I personally have never seen motion problems on my plasma that I don't see on any other display (Given that many HD widescreen CRT direct views employ processing of the picture, often find motion artifacts more noticeable than on my plasma). Motion smear in plasma are seen to be essentially a solved issue. Note that the Panasonic plasma has been the subject of many professional reviews, and you'd be hard pressed to find any mention of intrusive motion artifacting. Whereas, try and find a professional review of the Sony GW that does not bring up it's problematical black levels, and the detrimental effect on the picture. *** (See following post)

Certainly no one I've seen in two years inhabiting the AVS plasma forum has had the problem with their Panasonic plasma. Is motion perfect? No. I've yet to see any display with absolutely perfect looking motion - especially with DVDs. But I see nothing in the plasma motion that I do not see when watching any other display type.

"The only advantage to owning a plasma, is that you will get major browny points with the ladies for having one."

Unless of course you are switching from an LCD RPTV to a Pansonic plasma, in which case you will enjoy the objective picture quality advantages I've outlined :D

"If you wanna spend a lot of money to get something cool, then get a Samsung DLP RPTV. The 617 is a 61" wide screen projection tv that will knock you off your feet and it's only 5 grand."

Sure, if you want a big picture. That is if you don't mind staring at 61" of the very digital conversion processing you decry in your same post. Or if you don't mind a truly wretched image when you want to watch regular NTSC signals. Or if you can abide the "clay faces" problem that pops up due to the well-known color banding problems of Samsung DLPs. Or if you don't mind inferior black levels to a good plasma or CRT. Or if you don't mind the neon-sign, cartoonish quality to the colors of the DLPs (acknowledged by many DLP owners...especially on the AVS RPTV forum...many have tried to rid the DLPs of the funky color look, with no success).

Look. The DLPs are nice displays. So is the Sony GW. I like them much more than it might seem from this post - and have in fact defended them sometimes in face of the CRT crowd. But there are good reasons - objectively supported reasons - why for sheer picture quality a good plasma can be preferable. If you don't understand the issues involved, to the point of proclaiming plasmas "Junk" while preferring a technology with more objective PQ problems than plasma...well...carry on I suppose. It's a public forum 'n all that...:)

I never pronounce plasma "the best." I simply make a case for why I choose plasma. Each display technology offers it's own attributes, and I understand why anyone else would choose them. You can get a nice sharp picture from an LCD/DLP RPTV, more screen size per dollar and no possibility of burn-in. Whereas Plasma offers some PQ attributes that LCD RPTVs do not, and they happen to be attributes I value.

Cheers,
 

Rich H

Second Unit
Joined
May 22, 2001
Messages
283
*** To further back up the fact I'm not drawing the Sony GW problems out of thin air, here is some more on the Sony Grand Wega.

From Home Theater Magazine's review of the Sony GW:

"The first thing I noticed about this TV was its black level. Compared with a CRT-based device, the Sony's black level is quite high. However, compared with other digital devices, it's a tad below average. That, in itself, wouldn't be too bad, but, thanks to a rather ski-slope-like gray scale, the screen's dark areas are very blue compared with the rest of the image. After an ISF-certified tech calibrated the KF-50XBR800, the gray scale was right on D6500 through most of the range. However, as you can see in the measurements box, there's still a rather severe blue bump at the bottom of the gray scale. This was nearly impossible to get rid of without sacrificing the rest of the gray scale's accuracy."

From Stereophile Guide To Home Theater's review of the Grand Wega:

"The blacks produced by the Grand Wega will not satisfy the video perfectionist. A solid black field looked medium-gray, and this raised black level permeated almost everything viewed on the set. It was most often visible as a gray fog overlaying dark scenes, but could also show up on some bright scenes as a subtle washing-out of the picture. "

From DVD review, on the Grand Wega:

"Contrast is lacking, so dark areas of a picture look misty and unfocussed. This leads to dampened, unrealistic colours and lack of detail in darker or dingy scenes."

What do you find in reviews of the Pansonic plasma?

From Sound And Vision's recent Panasonic ED Plasma Review: "Picture contrast, color, and detail were all astonishingly good." And.."Skipping to the XXX balcony sequence—my new black-level torture test for plasma TVs—I was impressed by shadow details in this murky scene. Not only could I make out highlights in Yelena's dark-brown hair, but the nighttime sky surrounding it was a deep shade of black—something most plasma TVs have trouble achieving with dim images. Panasonic gets an enthusiastic thumbs up for delivering impressive detail with dark images." And..."With its PT-42PD3-P, Panasonic has created a stunning set that's likely to wipe out any misgivings hard-core video enthusiasts have about plasma displays."

Panasonic ED Plasma Review from Home Cinema:
"Wow. Panasonic's new image processing is nothing short of revolutionary, enabling the 42PW4 to deliver far and away the most cinematic images I've seen on a plasma screen. The contrast range is sensational, rendering black levels so true and devoid of noise that they really do rival the best CRT TVs." And..."overall the Panasonic 42PW4 is simply in a class of its own."

From respected reviewer, AV consultant Peter H. Putman in his plasma round-up:

"Top honors for contrast performance with an optimum grayscale went to Panasonic's TH-37PWD4 (not surprising, given Panasonic's showing the past two years). It turned in an average reading of 608:1 and a peak reading of 779:1 which was bettered only by the Fujitsu PDS-5003 at 799:1 peak. Both monitors use glass from Matsushita as well as the Plasmaco-designed low drive system to produce better black levels, which measured on average .2 to .3 nits for both models."
 

JaleelK

Second Unit
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Messages
296
When you mention the screen door effect, I'm imagining you are talking about the "ED" definition plasmas, which have larger visible pixels than the "HD" models. I'd be truly amazed if you are bothered by any screen door effect on the very densely packed HD models. I sure as heck don't see it from any reasonable viewing distance. In fact, from about 8 feet on I don't find the pixels on my Panasonic ED model to be discreet - it's a very smooth picture. Are you standing too close to the plasmas at the stores or something? (If you look at my screen shots from about 2 1/2 to 3 ft from your monitor, you'll get the same look as I do from my viewing distance. I doubt you'll notice any screen door effect. Maybe, who knows?)
I checked out a bunch of Plasma TV's, LCD's and DLP's and Plasma tv's still have that screen door(fish net)look. The plasmas at Magnolia Hi-fi are all HD sets. Even though plasma sets are coming down in price, the lack of a smooth picture is still a turn off to me. DLP's and LCD's, while brighter and sharper than CRT's, they still are kind of noisy. There is room for a lot of improvement on all of the digital displays. Also, with the digital displays there is no where to play high quality center channel speaker, you might be able to put a Bose cube on top of one.
 

John_F

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Apr 21, 1999
Messages
126

Mando-R, wouldn't the same conversion problems occur for DLP?

Thanks,
John Flegert
 

Rich H

Second Unit
Joined
May 22, 2001
Messages
283
JaleelK,

Cool. I guess plasmas won't be for you until they further improve fill ratio (in upcomming models). Some people feel the Sony HD plasmas display the least screen door effect. (But I wouldn't buy Sony based on their awful black levels).

I find I can't get very close to the typical CRT tube set without becoming aware of the grill structure (pixels-look). The first CRT tube set I've seen that finally eliminates it is the new Sony Super Fine Pitch 910. But then, some people are having trouble with that set's image latency which creates "trails."

Ah well, nuthin's perfect in AV.
 

Vic Barry

Grip
Joined
Jun 23, 2001
Messages
20
In Ireland Plasmas can be very expensive. Many the time i thought og buying one...but when you compare the price to a PJ..well i ended up with the PJ.

Honestly if i had the money id buy one for the bedroom or somewhere because they do look sexy.
 

Rich H

Second Unit
Joined
May 22, 2001
Messages
283
ChrisWiggles,

Yup, true about dat my good man!

If I had the space and budget, I'd likely have a CRT FP (although I'd probably want a plasma too, as I really like the look of movies on plasma as well).

I've auditioned most of the highly rated CRT RPTVs (properly calibrated) and found they offer some great image qualities, especially that filmic look. And great color detail too. But I'm put off by the uneven illumination, which I find distracting even from directly on axis. I get this feeling of a projector pointed the wrong way through a film strip - a light beam aimed at my eyes instead of from behind me. Not to mention the shifts in luminance with viewing positions. You skip those problems with Front Projection, of course. And, while I really love how evenly a great RPTV can render the gray scale, for a very natural-looking contrast ratio, I don't actually find the image to be as smooth as others talk about. I can see the processing - the video noise - in every RPTV. From close up it's a grainy, splotchy, effect - very similar to film grain but more video-like, and to my eyes uglier than film grain. I can notice this from a normal viewing distance.
In contrast, I'm used to an image from my plasma that looks sure and rock solid, without that swimmy, grainy faux-film look. (It's a good plasma that way...but I've seen grain, pixelation and noise in quite a few other plasmas, so I wouldn't portray plasma as being free of the problem, that's for sure).

Anyway...the moral is: We're all too damned picky. Why can't we be like my wife?: happy with a 12" tube set, placed in the corner of the room, under a potted plant.
;)
 

Jim-M

Second Unit
Joined
Oct 22, 2001
Messages
266
Mandor-R wrote:
Do you know how long it takes to move a plasma? They might be light but there's no one in the world that can carry one by himself. You wanna know why? Because plasma's can't be tilted at all, or you're screwed.
So by 'tilt' do you mean that you wouldn't be able to lay one flat on the floor? Why on earth would Panasonic recommend that you do that in the user's manual when installing the table top stand if it's going to harm the plasma?
 

Rich H

Second Unit
Joined
May 22, 2001
Messages
283
"Do you know how long it takes to move a plasma? They might be light but there's no one in the world that can carry one by himself. You wanna know why? Because plasma's can't be tilted at all, or you're screwed."

My plasma arrived before any of my other components, so it spent time in several rooms. The thing has handles (detachable) and it weighs 70 lbs. I carried it from room to room by myself, no problem. While I waited (forever) for my home theater stuff to arrive, I must have taken the plasma out of the box and placed it in various rooms to watch..oh...maybe 30 times. Apparently that makes me Superman. Cool!

Try that with an RPTV, or even a decent-sized CRT tube set.

My buddy down the street just set up his plasma for a test drive (with stand) practically in minutes. Brutal huh?

(Boy there's some odd "information" in Mando-R's post).
 

Jon Cheung

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Messages
67
Hey Rich, what model of the Panny do you have? How is the picture quality on projectors? Is it worth it to buy the screen and projector rather than a plasma? I know the size difference is huge but does the PQ drop substantially because of it?
 

Kenny Goldin

Second Unit
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
469
Wow...lots of good things in this thread...too bad it died! I live in an apartment and will be here for a couple of years more and right now plasma seems the best option for me. I would love to have FP but the way my living room is layed out I don't think that it is practical right now. I am looking to get rid of a bulky Sony 36"...a 50" plasma would do nicely. The way I figure it is that I can buy a good plasma with HD and be able to use it for many years down the road as a TV/HDTV monitor only once I get out of here and move into a house and buy a FP for a dedicated media/theater room only. I still need my news and sports, and a sweet plasma would do the job nicely!

As for tilting the plasma...do you all remember the commercial showing the couple trying to find the right place to put their plasma and they ended up putting it on the ceiling? Sure that is not practical and I would wager more way less than 1% would wach it lying on a bed looking up at the ceiling, but do you think they would show it in that angle if tilting it was the death nell of a plasma?

I am looking at the Panny TH-50PX20U/P and the Pioneer Elite 50" which is twice the cost, but I have a close relative in the home theater biz so I can get high end gear at cost more or less...
Sometimes Plasma is really the only route. But like I said if I get a good one that I can watch HDTV on in the future I think it is a good, temporary solution for TV AND DVD right now and TV/HDTV 2-3 years down the road when I move into a house and get a FP. :)
 

Jon Cheung

Stunt Coordinator
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Sep 22, 2002
Messages
67
Hey guys I have a question. Some dude at futureshop said plasmas have a short self life around 7 years. Is this true?
 

BrianAe

Second Unit
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Dec 2, 2002
Messages
441
I'll chime in with the following general comment: When considering price, you need to consider street price more than SRP. As that applies to this discussion, plasmas see much better discounting then RPTVs (especially digital) and direct view.
 

DaveGTP

Senior HTF Member
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Jul 24, 2002
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2,096
But I'm put off by the uneven illumination, which I find distracting even from directly on axis
Totally in agreement with Rich here as usual. I personally have never liked the viewing angle issues, washout, etc that CRT RP brings to the table - they look only tolerable with in light, or at any sort of angle.

To me, it was either watch at any angle, with any light level (Plasma) or deal with the light with blackout curtains, etc, and go FP. I see RPTVs as a half-measure. To me, it's either one way or the other. Viewing in all conditions or control the conditions 100%. (I ended up with an X1 FP setup). I love it.

But I see those frickin' rainbows in white on the DLP. Everything has pros and cons.


Comments about lifespan - you can do the math. Panny rates their plasmas at 60,000 hours to half brightness (and that's probably based on torch mode). But I will point out a couple of things.


The DLP chips are rated for something like 100,000 hours of operation. They wear out too. CRTs wear out (although they last very long - the technology has been refined over the years). LCDs have pixels die.

Everything wears out. Entropy is part of the way of the universe. :D



Everything has pros and cons. Cons for plasma are PRICE and maybe black levels - black levels on Pannys are ahead of DLP, WELL ahead of LCD, and only beaten by CRTs. This talk of motion blur - maybe on a cheap plasma or an LCD? But on the Pannys and Pioneers? There's something called ghosting, but it's not really a motion problem.
 

Brent M

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2001
Messages
4,486
Wow, there's more misinformation about plasmas in this thread than you get from a salesperson at Best Buy! It's idiots like this Mando-R person that perpetuate the inaccurate myths about plasma TVs. Thanks for trying to set people straight, RichH, although it seems to be lost on most people. Apparently AVS Forum is the only place to go for accurate information about display technologies. :frowning:
 

Ray Chuang

Screenwriter
Joined
Jan 26, 2002
Messages
1,056
I was a Fry's Electronics today, where they have a whole bunch of projection TV's playing the Discovery HD channel.

In my opinion, I didn't like the look of plasma TV's playing back HDTV, mostly because it had a somewhat washed out look to the picture. Also, I do have concerns that plasma displays do tend to degrade over time.

Meanwhile, I saw the same Discovery HD program on a Samsung HLN5063W and the picture quality was outstanding. The blacks were very good, and I didn't see any motion blurring. Yes, you can see a slight "screendoor" effect, but only by literally standing very, very close to the TV set itself.

It will be interesting to see how LCOS-based RPTV's look like when the price of LCOS falls over the next few years.
 

Brent M

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Apparently the plasmas you saw weren't properly calibrated or weren't good brands(like Panasonic, Fujitsu, Pioneer or Sony)because a good plasma will make every other RPTV look washed out in comparison(DLP included).
 

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