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Pioneer Slams DualDisc-Says Not Compatible!

Discussion in 'Music' started by Lee Scoggins, Nov 8, 2004.

  1. Rachael B

    Rachael B Producer

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    The very fact that sample discs were not sent to major hardware manufacturers for testing ahead of time seems half-baked, lacking prudence. Maybe they were scared of the feedback they'd get?
     
  2. Phil A

    Phil A Producer

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    Rachael, they already knew from the very ltd. sample tests they had done there basically was a 15% error rate. That error does not even begin to take into acct. what potential damage to the hardware that might result from playing DualDiscs (e.g. vs. regular CDs) over time. So you're absolutely right. They had to know that from data out there and problems that would result, people would be looking to the manuf. (e.g. sending E-Mails, calling, contact via their audio dealers) and something would be issued. Obviously they're hoping long-term the end result from what tests the manuf. are doing will not be negative and if not, at least they sold some software and made some money, put their legal disclaimer on the pkg. and let the consumer deal with those problems, if they in fact they do arise at all. Their priority was getting the product to the market, not the consumer's inconvenience or problems. There's warning labels on all kinds of products from cigarettes, applying certain cleaning materials or paint thinners in areas w/o proper ventalation, etc. People still buy and use those products in ways in which they were warned. So as long as people buy the product and they are making money they're not going to care.
     
  3. Will_B

    Will_B Producer

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    Actually, that was a self-reported error rate of the test markets (the sample of two major cities with huge populations of music buying students), which therefore included people who didn't know how to play the disc - for example, people who couldn't figure out how to select the 5.1 mix or the stereo mix. The actual error rate, in terms of equipment actually choking, hasn't been told, but was evidently within expectations.
     
  4. Phil A

    Phil A Producer

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    Will, if you read the earlier post I put about the news story and the test done and the time of the writing of the story, while I indicated I did not know the details of the test, the story clearly indicates that those failures are failures of the software, not the people not knowing how to use the disc:

    "Another potentially huge problem is illustrated in the DualDisc market study report, conducted by KL Communications for the major labels, is the failure of the discs in many customers’ systems. According to the report, 21 of 145 discs failed for one reason or another, based on the response of customers who bought the discs and then filled out a response card. Problems included trouble playing in DVD players (3%), computers (3%), complaints about DVD-Audio quality (3%), problems with packaging (3%), troubles playing in cars (2%) and troubles playing in CD players (2%). 145 respondents isn’t a huge sampling, but a 10 percent failure rate (or even one-third of that) could be a huge defeat for DualDisc, causing widespread returns for record resellers."


    Note that it says "discs failed." Yes there is a small % in each type of machine problems or failure (3% in most and 2% in couple) and yes some of that was pkging. and quality of DVD-A playback vs. actual trouble but that still leaves 10% of the discs having problems or failures, which based on posts on sites like audioayslum.com and here as well where car players would not read them, they barely got tehm back out of car players, DVD players would not read then, CD players would not read them, etc. so that according to what was reported has nothing to do with lack of people figuring out something. The story also fairly indicates, as did I, that 145 people who responded is not a great sample. Who knows, perhaps there were a 5,000 other who did not and perhaps very few of them had problems at all. It is clear that several major manuf. have issued warnings and further testing, which is a good thing and DualDisc besides conducting the test marketing could have done by sending samples to the manuf.
     
  5. Kris Deering

    Kris Deering Stunt Coordinator

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    Phil

    Just because the survey says it was software based doesn't mean it actually was. I was part of the survey and the questions had defined answers that didn't always fit the situation. Besides, if you gave 145 members of this forum the disc, I am sure at least 10% wouldn't be able to figure out how to access the DVD-A content vs DD or have other issues that are mainly user faults. It has been my experience that more people don't have a clue as to what they are doing when it comes to this stuff then those that are tech savvy, even in these forums. 99% of the time I get someone saying they have a problem with their setup, it is a setup issue that they didn't do right or just plain didn't understand.

    It is obvious that there are some hardware compatibility issues, but some of the hardware mentioned already had issues of long before DualDisc (i.e. Pioneer). Plus there has been inconsistencies in reports on other hardware. The Sony 777 for example. Some said they couldn't get the discs to play, others could.

    I completely agree that the DualDisc manufacturers should have sent out production samples to the different manufacturers, at least for a heads up. But Sony had plenty of heads up since it is one of the backers. I see these reports as more of a "cover your ass" approach by the manufacturers in case of damages and warranty repairs. I don't see any of these warnings as being a drive for them to hurt the format.
     
  6. Phil A

    Phil A Producer

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    Kris, Sony Music and Sony Electronics are not one in the same although they do share common ownership. I noted I have little information about what the survey other than what has been reported. As far as 'cover your ass' approaches, of course they most likely are. I don't know how it doesn't hurt the format when there will be compatibility issues as you noted (and some of them not consistent between the same model) and people who have items under warranty do contact the manuf. They will receive responses similar to what one member noted in this thread was received from Onkyo before Onkyo made their announcement. Do you really think after getting a 'cover your ass' response that the software may not play or damage your machine, that's not going to discourage sales among those people and the people they talk to? Do you really think that if they choose (and they may not - who knows) to put a disclaimer in the product manuals going forward in the very front where they usually indicated what discs the machine will play, that will serve to encourage software sales?

    As all I know from the survey is what has been reported, all I know from a Manuf. like Onkyo for sure at this point is that there may be problems and damage to my equipment. If I have an Onkyo machine, and especially one under warranty, why would I even think about the possibiity of ruining it. If a manuf. of an appliance tells you don't use cleaning products that contain a certain chemical ('cover your ass' or not) or you can damage the finish, are you going to go out and go looking for a product with that or choose some other cleaning product? There's plenty of software out there on DVD, CD, SACD, etc. I have no problem with anyone buying a DualDisc, it won't be me though until it is clear and the 'cover your ass' warnings are removed by the manuf. is not going to balk about warranty issues. Even out of warranty, I am not going to experiment to see if I can cause damage to the discs or one of my players. There's plenty of other stuff readily available in the market I do want and won't lead to those same potential problems.
     
  7. Paul.S

    Paul.S Producer

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    Thx for posting that title list, Kris. I haven't exactly been monitoring the DualDisc site for hot new news. [​IMG]

    I kinda figured this would happen: not unlike what's happened with DVD-A/SACD release slates, there are too many titles announced for albums I already have, especially on DCC or MoFi gold CDs that frankly I'm still happy with.

    Too much licensing to Silverline (especially for titles like The Fixx one and Collideoscope that are already out on DVD-A); too many evergreens that we've all probably bought before (how many freakin' times has Back In Black been remastered?!); Downward Spiral is slated for SACD release soon--it will be interesting to see if UMG then releases a DVD-A, too.

    Maybe I'll get Audioslave: I don't already have the CD and, since it's a Sony title, I know there won't be a DVD-A. But I also thereby know there won't be hi rez on the DD either. So unless there's groovy vid content on the DD, why the f*ck couldn't Sony just do a hybrid SACD?!

    Ugh. Tracking this nonsense is becoming more trouble than it's worth. Especially with hi def DVD maybe coming to market in app. 2 years.

    -p
     
  8. Kris Deering

    Kris Deering Stunt Coordinator

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    The AC/DC and Audioslave releases are the test market ones. I would pass on both. Neither have MC mixes and the PCM tracks are just like the CDs. The Audioslave has some videos and a couple live performances. The AC/DC has some making of footage.

    I figured a lot of the initial releases will be reissues of previous DVD-A material for a bit.

    Universal isn't going to release the NIN one on DVD-A, it is sticking with DualDisc on it, and it has the advanced resolution tracks. I will pick both the DualDisc and SA-CD up since they have different content and I am a NIN addict.
     
  9. Rachael B

    Rachael B Producer

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    So far it seems keeping off Dual-Disc will be pretty E-Z! I've taken the Dual-Disc Pledge, I won't get intimate with the format till I'm married.
     
  10. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    [​IMG]
     
  11. Will_B

    Will_B Producer

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    Thanks for reposting that survey again, so we can see that indeed, no concrete problems were reported.

    Interesting to see that the percentage of people who said they had "trouble playing" some aspects of their disc in their DVD player was the same percentage (3%) that had trouble with the packaging! "The plastic wrap was too tough!"

    Even if one were charitable and assumed that the "trouble with packaging" meant that their jewel case was cracked, that's still a good measure of the survey having a margin of irrelevance of 3%.
     
  12. Paul.S

    Paul.S Producer

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    Kris:

    Kris, by "different content" are you just referring to the fact that one is an SACD and the other release is a Dual, or do you have specific info. as to what will be on one versus the other?

    -p
     
  13. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    I don't have any faith in DualDisc surveys given the ridiculous earlier phone survey from the DVDA folks...I think we should take this survey with a grain of salt. They probably got the results they paid for.
     
  14. gregD

    gregD Second Unit

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    Even if there are exactly zero functional problems with DD, it doesn't change the fact that it is a gimmick medium with little (or to me, no) added value.

    Better performance?... new format?... higher resolution?... more storage (on a side)?... what's the advantage?

    If it's really crucial to add a subpar video to my music package, just put it on a second disc.

    Why can't the resources driving DD be directed to reliable, affordable, digital-interface universal players?

    Why create this shiny gadget disc at all?
     
  15. Brian L

    Brian L Producer

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    Geez Paul....you starting to sound crabby like me!

    Seriously, I don't know how many time BiB has been remastered (I have the original US LP, the Original CD, the Remastered CD in the Bonfire Set, and a 180g Vinyl release).

    But I won't be happy until either James Guthrie or Elliot Scheiner get a crack at it!

    BGL
     
  16. Will_B

    Will_B Producer

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    Well for me, it could be great. I'm the kind of music fan who only likes a few artists, but I like to get a wide breadth of their works, which includes their singles and videos and assorted junk. And typically that means having to go on a hunt to find obscure singles, out of print videos, etc.

    The prospect of having all these assorted "gimmicks" on the DVD side of a DualDisc is a godsend. No more outrageous costs. No more having to go the ebay route. Finally, the labels will themselves have a way of putting together the kinds of materials which typically were left to the fans to hunt down and compile themselves.

    Mind you, that will only happen if the format becomes dominant. Until then, if you want to track down Grace Jone's One Man Show video, you're still out of luck. But given time, it would be a natural for the flipside of any greatest hits cd. (I use that example because it is a good example of a video which probably would not sell enough as a stand-alone DVD product to justify it being released, but would be a natural to include on DualDisc).
     
  17. Bill Leber

    Bill Leber Stunt Coordinator

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    I can answer for Kris. The SACD is a Deluxe Edition with a second disc of remixes and rarities. The Dual Disc does not include the second disc, but the DVD side has 3 videos and a photo gallery in addition to high Rez stereo and surround.

    Of course, the videos will all be on the Closure DVD when it's released next year.

    nin.com
     
  18. Paul.S

    Paul.S Producer

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    Thx, Bill (pls chime in to corroborate/add/controvert, Kris). So here's a clear example of UMG putting on a Dual the vid content that would have gone on the DVD-A and also still including hi rez . . .

    -p
     
  19. Dan Hitchman

    Dan Hitchman Cinematographer

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    Why DualDiscs in the first place? They waste plastic to no end in the industry anyway, so why not a CD and DVD-Audio in a two disc package? These seemed like such overly complicated products to manufacture to begin with, and in the end the play time was cut down quite a bit on BOTH sides, and they've run into compatibility problems.

    Stupid.

    Dan
     
  20. Will_B

    Will_B Producer

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    Because the intent is to make people want to buy a product rather than get it as a free download. By making the video-or-high-res side seem intrinsic to the product, they acheive this, since most people don't have the patience to download anything but basic stereo audio.

    If they simply pair CD and a DVD in the same box as you suggest, then conceptually a person is buying a CD plus something else -- in their mind they are buying two products, one of which is seen as optional. That concept must be avoided, because as long as a person perceives it as TWO items rather than as ONE, in their minds they may decide "ah, nevermind the extra bonus disc, I just want the album" and they'll steal the album via a download.

    By making the video-or-high-res part and the basic audio part seem instrinsically to be one item, they are trying to make a person feel that if all they get online is the CD, they've missed out on half the product.



    On a less conceptual level, two discs rather than one is heavier, affecting shipping.
     

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