Pioneer Slams DualDisc-Says Not Compatible! (1 Viewer)

[Phil A]

Brian, perhaps a thread is in order on which format smells better when playing in a universal player. Could be lots of fun?

 

[Justin Lane]

I was thinking the same thing especially after reading the announcement from another thread. Like all news reporting, you have to consider the source.

J

 

[Kevin C Brown]

I just went to their web site.

They have 3 recorders listed. They have 3 "std" players listed. They have 5 Elite players listed, 3 of which are universal in nature.

I have successfully recommended Pioneer players to 3 of my friends over the past 2 years. They are indeed a major player. I don't understand where you get that they aren't.

 

[Phil A]

Pioneer currently has I believe the lowest priced universal player and therefore I think has among all the cos. supporting all formats, made a good faith effort to get equipment into the hands of the general public at good prices. I've seen various stats such as:

http://www.brandweek.com/brandweek/f...ctronic_01.jsp

or other things that indicated worldwide Sony is the leader in DVD harware sales (somewhere around 21% from memory and I think Panasonic is next with 12%).

However with Sony and Pioneer being cautious to say the least at this point in time, this is not encouraging news for a new format when one might be talking about 30% of the DVD hardware market and who knows what major share of the CD player market. Remember, we are not just talking about DVD-V player warnings, we are talking about computer drives, CD players, CD recorders, etc. All I can say it can't be the most helpful endorsement to a new product launch in the 1st week. Time will tell on what the final outcome of tests and or issues will be and what will be put in their future product manuals.

 

[Wayne Bundrick]

No Brian, you got my point exactly.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

So Yes in effect they are saying they are not fully CD compliant or compatible as I put it in the title. Testing is ongoing but the fact that a mfr would take such an unusual step raises real concerns about DualDisc compatibility in general. I think Sony and Pioneer are worried about consumer backlash if a disc does not play-perhaps class action lawsuits are on their minds in our litigious country.

 

[Phil A]

Lee, it is just the negative manner in the way the thread was titled vs. what was in the text of the Pioneer release and the perception that most people think you believe that Sony poops gold and Warner has breath that smells like buffalo farts.

No one is saying that Pioneer praised the DualDisc release as something that is not a potential problem. As far as potential litigation matters go, if you do seaches of threads that were posted when the DualDisc idea was 1st floated, I mentioned that fact and that DualDisc could hurt DVD-A.

Personally, I wish they (the cos.) just sit in a room and come out with something that will satisfy the general public, audiophiles and help their bottom line. I think they good do DVD-As with 24/96 stereo tracks compatible with DVD-V players and multi-channel of lower (DVD-A and 5.1) resolution to satisfy surround sound fans. I think they've gotten all hung up on worrying about car and portable players, that seem likely to have more problems and the need to have something that will play on a CD player. If they wanted something for the general public to do that they likely could have experimented with VCDs more that can be played in CD players and also the video content watched in many DVD players. DualDisc seems to have abandoned real quality hi-rez anyway for something that may be marginally better than CD quality playback.

 

[Justin Lane]

What a stretch.

J

 

[Tony-B]

I personally don't understand why the record companies just go for 2 discs in a single jewel case. This has been done for quite a few years now on many releases, and has proved to be very viable. By putting two discs in a single package the record companies can assure maximum compatibility and the discs won't be as easily scratched. Also, wouldn't pressing two individual discs be cheaper than making a DualDisc?

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Justin- The people who I recommended Pioneer players to were certainly familiar with the market before they got to me. They wouldn't have bought Pioneer if they weren't a major player.

In fact, I view the big 4 as Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, and Denon. Top 4 auto sellers in the US are GM, Ford, Daimler/Chryseler, and Honda. (3 and 4 now switch positions.) So one of either Honda or Daimler/Chryseler isn't a "major player" in the auto industry just because they aren't #1 or #2?

Anyway, here's a similar sentiment from Sony regarding Dual Disc:

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=15319712

Ok, so Sony isn't a major player either?

 

[Phil A]

Tony, I don't know much about the costs of pressing them (in separate discs) but also wonder what the economics are as far as royalties. Evidently the CD side (of a DualDisc) is not quite a CD and that's part of the compatibility warnings. All these formats are being pushed out there as an attempt to inject life into a hurting industry. Unfortunately, I think all they are doing is confusing customers and perhaps doing things that may piss off customers even more.

 

[Rachael B]

You said it Phil! I'm P'ed that they can't agree on anything, can't stick with anything, won't provide digital outputs for M/C players, and blame the customers for their merde!-!-!:frowning:

But, for you Phil I have a !

 

[Phil A]

Now Rachael go a bit easy on me at my delicate age and don't get me overly excited with too many smiles, I don't keep my Geritol and other old guy medication too close to the computer.

It's unfortunate but it seems to be always that way on formats. Look at HD DVD. DVD is the most successful format in consumer history. One would think that the cos. would do whatever is possible not to mess up a good thing (let's not count DIVX) and keep the ball and interest rolling with the new and improved version. Gosh, they're even more stubborn than a grumpy old guy like me. That's horrible. They should be ashamed of that fact

 

[Rachael B]

- - - ! Yo Phil!

 

[Justin Lane]

Ah, such maturity in your response. I will no longer touch on this subject with you as you have allowed personal brand loyalty to get in the way of reality. We will just have to agree to disagree.

J

 

[Phil A]

Rachael - you're too much.

Here is another take (opinion) on frustration someone had with DualDiscs:

http://www.digitalmerging.la/archive..._problems.html

I have not looked at the discs in stores since they're not much interest to me personally but the person indicates the notation on the DualDisc shows:

"THIS DISC IS INTENDED TO PLAY ON STANDARD DVD AND CD PLAYERS
May not play on a limited number of models"

If that is not a legal cop-out don't know what is. Wonder if there was a legal issue what they would call a std. DVD player or CD player? In a CD/SACD player like what Sony makes not a std. CD player. Perhaps it is a bit hasty to be down on Sony when the disc has a statement that may mean Sony players and Sony is being prudent to have reservations. Same is true of Pioneer. They made LD players. Where do they fall in? How about a CD Recorder/Player? What about a universal player? It is not either a std. DVD player along nor a std. CD player alone. What does limited number of models mean? 5% of the machines out there? 10%? 20%? If the above statment on DualDisc pkg. is true I don't blame any hardware manuf. for being prudent and taking legal precautions. It is nice that DualDisc is being realistic (vs. telling you it will even play in a toaster oven) but how many people would have taken Vioxx if they said it would cause death in a ltd. number of cases? How many doctors would prescribe it?

 

[Kevin C Brown]

So please share with me your reality. What data do you have that supports your contention that Pioneer and Denon *aren't* major players for the average consumer? DVD player product sales revenue? Unit sales? US? Europe? The World? And who are the additional major players, if Pioneer and Denon aren't?

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Like claiming Pioneer is not a major player in audio-video?

Where have you been?

 

[ChristopherDAC]

It's not Pioneer who says the audio side of the DualDisc is not a CD -- or at least not Pioneer alone. The Compact Disc Digital Audio system is a Sony-Phillips joint product based upon the LaserDisc technology jointly owned by Phillips and Pioneer and administered by DiscoVision. As I believe has come up here before, the DualDisc is not allowed to carry the CD-DA logo because of judgements by the engineers responsible for certification [at NV Phillips Gloelampenfabricken for certain, and possibly at Sony and Pioneer or DiscoVision as well] that it does not conform sufficiently to the track pitch, linear velocity, deph of focus, and other specifications of the Compact Disc Digital Audio format as published in the Red Book. It may use the same encoding system, but it is not a CD.
This is not a "slam" as such; it is a plain statement of fact, which provides a reason for the subsequent statement that the said audio side may not play correctly in Pioneer players which are basically guaranteed to play any non-defective disc bearing the CD-DA logo, and most defective ones to boot.

 

[Phil A]

Christopher, good post. The other point that disturbs me about the DualDisc warning (assuming it is fact) is the way it is worded. It does not contain language to limit the incompatibility to just reading errors. Not "play" could mean numerous things from reading errors, to getting stuck to not reading and causing more rapid wear of the player's transport mechanism. If they just warned about not reading and had a disclaimer similar to what Christopher indicated and also indicated that the reading error may occur in current market machines that normally read CDs and DVDs vs. the wording "std. DVD players (like what is a Sony DVD/SACD player) I think it would be a lot better. What they are basically saying is that if something happens we told you and you are on your own. Yes I know their legal staff probably made them word it that way but they went overboard in my opinion.

Lee, my point is that in all your posts (perhaps you wish to read them), there always appears to be an overly negative view of (anything to do with) DVD-A (for the most part) and overly optimistic view of Sony (for the most part). I know that Sony is doing DualDisc, and so do most people who read there forums on a regular basis but Pioneer did not slam DualDisc. Perhaps you've been watching too much wrestling or are toying with a career writing headlines for the Nat'l Enquirer? I don't think there are many who followed my posts who don't know I prefer SACD as a format, but that I enjoy DVD-A too, and no one has asked me if I work for Sony, own stock in Sony, etc. There just appears to be a constant agenda to down the DVD-A format and many times it is done unfairly. I've said it before (and it is something you should know better than any of us) that the mixing and mastering can have a bigger impact regardless of format. Just look at stuff like what AIX puts out. The recording quality and care leaves nothing to be desired. I also don't necessary like multi-channel mixes or aggressive surround mixing more than most people here. I don't go around 'slamming' they're tastes nor do I hesitate to agree with legitimate comments (made by others) about Sony like what they've done lately on SACD. So the best advice I could give is try to be a bit fairer and a little more sensitive to the tastes of others. I would think that many here into HT like the DualDisc concept even though it does not thrill me.