Pioneer DV-45A does not have bass management (1 Viewer)

[Anthony_K]

I don't believe that I can agree with the assessment that the Pioneer 47ai does not have bass management for DVD Audio.

I own the 47ai and did some tests this morning. The settings on my 47ai are as follows:

1) All speakers set to small
2) Subwoofer set to on
3) Channel level variable - all set to +6db (calibrated to make all channels equal via additional adjustments on my processor - Integra Research RDC-7)

My processor was set to the multichannel output (direct bypass).

I first tested SACD bass management as the consensus was that the bass management works for SACD. The easiest way to test it is the way others did - by playing a 2.0 (stereo) SACD. I played several tracks on Steve Earle's "Guitar Town" SACD and had output from the front channels as well as the subwoofer.

I then proceeded to do the same with DVD-A. I do not own any 5.0 DVD-A discs. All of my DVD-A discs are 5.1, but they also provide a high resolution DVD-A stereo mix (2.0). The following DVD-A discs were used for the test: Eagles "Hotel California" and R.E.M. "Automatic for People". I went into the disc menu for each DVD-A disc and selected the stereo playlist. I played several tracks from each DVD-A and got output from the front channels and the subwoofer just as with SACD. The bass was very strong for all tracks.

I don't know of a way to fully test the bass management for 5.1 discs as they include the .1 channel, meaning output from the subwoofer will be present whether speakers are set to small, large, etc. However, there is no reason to believe that it does not work. Maybe there is a bass management "bug" for multichannel discs without a .1 channel (i.e. 4.0, 5.0, etc.).

 

[Tony Genovese]

I own the Barenboim Beethoven 9th. It has no 2 channel option, just 5.0. Any other way of listening needs to be set up at the player, not on the disk. When I put the the subwoofer up all the way both on the player and on my amp, I hear nothing out of the sub, zippo, nada from this disk. The subwoofer is silent. I don't have any 2.0 disks to test. However, are you sure that the supposed stereo track is not outputting .1? Just a thought. I have the Faith Hill Cry disk and will test it post-haste

 

[Anthony_K]

I don't believe that the stereo mixes include a .1 channel. If I remember correctly, the Eagles "Hotel California" DVD-A disc includes 6 channels at 24 bit/96khz and 2 channels at 24 bit/192khz.

Overall, bass management is a very confusing topic with regard to multichannel audio (SACD and DVD-A). There really should be standard requirements for bass management. I've read so many contradictory posts with regards to players; it's hard to tell what each player does and does not do. There are many questions regarding bass management for Dolby Digital and DTS, but they usually are about crossover frequencies, global vs. non-global, etc., not whether there is bass management.

As stated earlier, you can't even trust the manufacturers' tech support people and sales reps. When the 47ai was about to be released, representative from Pioneer were quoted as saying that the only change from the 47a to the 47ai was the addition of the firewire link. Shortly thereafter, it was discovered that the DAC's were changed, the video section was changed, the software interface was redone, bass management was improved to supposedly include support for both SACD and DVD-A, etc.

 

[Ron Newsome]

I have the 47Ai also. I connected my subwoofer directly to the Sub output on the DVD player. All speakers set to Small in the 47Ai. The Channel Level was at "Fix". I then played a 4.0 DVD-A recording(Morton Subotnik) and got plenty of bass.
I conclude the 47Ai does do BM for DVD-A.

Kevin, try connecting your Subwoofer directly to your 47Ai and do the test this way.

Tony, have you tried it this way too?

 

[Tony Genovese]

I connected my subwoofer directly to the Sub output on the DVD player.

How did you control the volume with the subwoofer connected directly to the 47Ai? Was the bass coming from the subwoofer?

 

[Ron Newsome]

How did you control the volume with the subwoofer connected directly to the 47Ai? Was the bass coming from the subwoofer?

Yes the bass was coming from the Subwoofer, and it was the only thing connected to the back of the dvd player, besides the component video outputs.

With the 47Ai's channel level set to Fix, the only way I could control the volume was by using the volume control on the back of the Subwoofer itself. But I didn't touch it, and left it at the 10:00 position. The bass was coming through loud and clear.

If I had set the Channel Level to Variable, then I guess I could've used the Subwoofer level control in the 47Ai's Audio Settings Menu to control the volume.

May I ask why did you want to know how I controlled the volume? I thought the whole point was to see if BM worked and if one could get output from the Subwoofer using an x.0 recording.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Ron- I will try the sub from the player. I can't imagine why that would be any different than from my pre/pro, especially as SACD worked as it should. I'm now wondering if it might be "fixed" vs "variable" too...

I'll also add that hopefully both you and Anthony made sure you were listening to the DVD-A tracks, and not the DVD-V tracks. On the 4.0 DVD-A disc I have, I cannot change from DVD-A to DVD-V from within the disc's menu. I have to go out to the Pioneer's setup menu, and reconfigure the DVD default back and forth between DVD-A and DVD-V...

 

[Tony Genovese]

May I ask why did you want to know how I controlled the volume?

Because if that was the only way the BM functioned, it's a rather impractical way to listen to a DVD-A.

Your setup seems to prove that your 47ai does bass management. Maybe they did a firmware upgrade at some point, as there are others whose 47ai performs differently. For me at this point it's a moot point. I'm taking back the 45a in favor of a dedicated SACD player and DVD player that plays DVD-A.

 

[Mike Sloan]

I called Pioneer and for what it is worth....the tech rep. told me that they have been swamped by calls on this topic. He said that the bass management on the 45A is the same as on the 47Ai. He also confirmed that both players send only the LFE to the sub for DVD A...but not for SACD....that is wierd! He also confirmed that that the player is not boosting the LFE 10dB. Soooo is the ICBM the only fix?

 

[Brian L]

He also confirmed that that the player is not boosting the LFE 10dB. Soooo is the ICBM the only fix?

I have had an open case with Pioneer on the low LFE since October when I first noted it. I get e-mails once in a while from them, usually written in English but obviously authored by someone in Japan....talk about incoherent.

But I digress.

Well, the ICBM will certainly take care of any BM issues. Set the 45A to All Large/Sub On/Levels fixed, and all that stuff goes away (or at least it appears to).

I bought it prior to hearing he reports of bogus BM with titles lacking a .1 channel. FWIW, I never really perceived a lack of bass, just a low level, usually fixable with trims and sub levels, but that is of course dependent on your rig. Then again, I think all of my DVD-A and SACD titles have a .1 channel, so I would not have heard what Tony noted.

What I really wanted the ICBM for was the 80 Hz crossover for compatibility with my THX EQ.

Anyway as for the missing boost, the ICBM also has a variable sub level control (+/- 9 dB I think) which will help a lot with that.

I was able to balance my rig prior to the ICBM, but find that the bass sounds MUCH better in my room with my gear running with 80Hz crossover. Depending on the title, you may also find the bass re-combine switch useful to give a bit more impact to the bass.

BGL

 

[Sach]

There really should be standard requirements for bass management. I've read so many contradictory posts with regards to players; it's hard to tell what each player does and does not do.

Dead on Dude! I have gone through the manuals of Denon 3800, Sony 999ES, Yamaha 2300, Pioneer 47Ai and the chapters on bass management (Speaker installation, delay, distance) are exactly the same! No differences at all.

Kevin, try to do tests with other discs too like the 5.1 ones!

 

[Ron Newsome]

Because if that was the only way the BM functioned......

That makes no sense, because if it provides a signal with a subwoofer connected directly to it, then it will provide a signal when connected to Multi_Ch inputs. And if at that point you don't hear anything, then something is wrong with the receiver. The 47Ai doesn't know what it's connected to.

 

[Anthony_K]

I was playing the DVD-A tracks. The player defaults to DVD Audio (at least based on my setup). Once it has read the contents - DVD Audio comes up on the display and the menu is loaded. It then automatically begins to play the DVD-A surround tracks. If I want to listen to stereo, I stop playback - hit top menu and you can choose from surround or stereo DVD-A tracks.

Tonight I played back a few more DVD-A discs in stereo mode and the bass was directed to the subwoofer.

I would really like to see other people report on their results if they play the DVD-A stereo tracks with all speakers set to small and subwoofer on. I can't imagine that I'm the only one that gets bass from the subwoofer in that scenario. If I play the stereo tracks with the front speakers set to large - I do not get any bass from the subwoofer which is the way it should be.

 

[Tony Genovese]

That makes no sense, because if it provides a signal with a subwoofer connected directly to it, then it will provide a signal when connected to Multi_Ch inputs. And if at that point you don't hear anything, then something is wrong with the receiver. The 47Ai doesn't know what it's connected to.

Then why did you hook it up that way in the first place? That seemed to make no sense. Wouldn't it have functioned just the same going through the multi-channel inputs? Now I'm confused.

BTW, you think the Pioneer tech guys lied to Mike Sloan when they said the BM does not function on DVD-A? It's the same thing they told me. They probably lied to me too, just to make me feel better. You think Kevin Brown reported his results same as mine so that I wouldn't appear like a crackpot? I'm not sure what's going on here, but based on my experience, Kevin's experience, and the Pioneer tech guy's experience my conclusion is that bass management does not function with DVD-A. Your setup must somehow be outputting a .1 channel and that make perfect sense based on all the other facts presented.

 

[Mike Sloan]

I will be hooking up the 45A tomorrow and will run the same tests that all of you have already commented on. It does appear that something weired is going on with the bass management feature of the 45a/47Ai. It is possible that Pioneer has made changes in more recent production runs that perhaps could account for the discrepancy in the findings posted. My unit states that it was manufactured in Aug. 2002. I don't like the fact that I will probably have to spend an additional $250.00 to "fix" this thing. You know..when I think about it...aren't we experiencing the same LFE level problem when we listen to DTS Music! The LFE channel of multichannel film soundtrack requires a 10db boost on the LFE channel. The LFE is specifically encoded 10db lower than intended and the decoder adds back in the 10db (assuming your LFE pad is in the proper position..usually maxed out). Now when you pop in the DTS music DVD...bass is heavy and you need to turn down the LFE. Oh well...I guess half the fun is in the fiddling!

 

[Kevin C Brown]

AK- You should check again. Out of the box, my DV47ai defaulted to DVD-V, *not* DVD-A. I had to change the setting to get to DVD-A...
In my system, the LFE boost is a non-issue. (There is a different thread that I think Brian L started, but the search function is dead now...)
In my pre/pro for CD/DD/DTS (all digital), for example, I have my mains all within +/- 2 dB of 0, and my sub is set to - 5dB. In the 47ai for DVD-A and SACD for analog, more or less the same settings for the mains, but +6 dB for the sub. In other words, you have to play with the cal settings and the volume knob on the sub to get it all to work together.
So, Pioneer has told both Tony and Mike directly that the BM for DVD-A doesn't work, and both Tony and I have tested it and found that to be true. I will still try the direct sub test, but I'm less motivated now.

 

[Lewis Besze]

The end result with DD and DTS is a correct bass level whether it's being done internally in a receiver at the default full bass setting(0 db on my Denon AVR-3803 and +10 db on my Yamaha RX-V2095) or being done in a standalone processor.

You talking about something else,it's called the "LFE mix" it is a variable settings feature,[it's maximum setting, be it "0" or "+10" is it's default]and it is none related to the encoding/decoding stage,nor this topic.If it wasn't for DTS's f..up,we wouldn't even need this feature.
The 10db boost I was refering to is part of the decoding process on all DD/DTS decoders as part of the standards of the formats.Any decoder that don't perform this should not receive a licence,and bear those logos.Read about this here.

 

[Ron Newsome]

Then why did you hook it up that way in the first place? That seemed to make no sense. Wouldn't it have functioned just the same going through the multi-channel inputs?

Sorry for the confusion.

My 47Ai is connected to my 49TXi using the i-Link. I did not feel the need to go through all the trouble of connecting 6 additional cables when all I needed to do was disconnect the Subwoofer cable from the back of the receiver and stick it directly in the SW input in the back of the 47Ai, just to see if it was performing BM.

Anyway I did the test again, this time using the Chesky Ultimate DVD using the DVD-A 4.0 music. I did not get a Subwoofer signal. But I'm telling you, and I do know what I heard and saw, when I played the Morton Subotnick DVD-A(4.0) disc, I heard bass coming out of the Subwoofer and the indicators on my receiver were lit for the L/R/Ls/Rs. The indicators for the center and sub/lfe were off. The onscreen display from the DVD player also says 2/2, not 2/2.1.

Maybe the Morton Subotnick disc does contain a .1 signal but is not flagged to indicate so, like some Dolby Digital EX titles are not flagged correctly to show that they contain rear surround.
Oh well, thank God for i-Link!

 

[Anthony_K]

No need to check again. When you put the disc in the player, after it loads, the display reads DVD Audio in big capital letters. I guess I should have been clearer. By default, I did not mean straight out of the box, but instead after set-up.

Again, on the DVD-A discs I own the only stereo tracks are for DVD Audio. To further verify, that the player is playing DVD Audio, all you have to look at is the front panel display of the player. When the 47ai is playing back Dolby Digital or DTS tracks, DD or DTS is lit up on the front panel. Those lights are not on when I am playing back a DVD-A disc.

I do not think that the Pioneer tech people are lying, however, I would not be surprised if they are uninformed. Especially considering how the model numbers on some of these players are confusing. More often than not when I call a tech support person, the person is most likely a "kid" and in many cases has to put me on hold to get an answer, assuming they understand the question. This may not be true with the smaller boutique companies, but has been my experience with the larger companies.

Also, every review that I have read for the 45A - refers to the player having bass management for DVD Audio. Sound and Vision specifically tested the bass management for all formats and stated that it is functional for Dolby Digital, DTS, SACD and DVD-A. Obviously it is possible they were incorrect, but I would think they may have better equipment to test than us. They can report on the crossover frequencies implemented, slope etc. In many cases they report slight differences in the slopes used depending on format.

I still have not read where anyone has tested the bass management for DVD Audio replicating my test/setup. Small speakers all around, subwoofer on, etc. It is important that people setup many of the options in the Initial Settings screens (not just the speaker options) properly and verify their settings as they do not always hold. I would be very surprised if you do not get bass when playing back a DVD-A 2.0 track with the set-up I have. As I stated in my previous post, if I have all speakers small, sub on I get output from the sub - my sub does not even turn on unless it receives a signal. Once I change the front speakers to large, no output from the sub with the same DVD-A 2.0 tracks. Also, I believe with many players, if you have the front channels set to large the bass is redirected to the front channels, not the subwoofer.

 

[Ron Newsome]

I tested for DVD-A stereo, and I got bass too. But I can't completely understand the discrepancies I got with the two 4.0 discs that I have.