Pioneer 47Ai first impressions (1 Viewer)

[Tim Schwartz]

Ron,

You're right. I was typing my previous post at my usual snail's pace when you posted your findings. Like I said, I just wish it was correct to begin with. I don't think those level gains were put there to compensate for a design problem.

 

[LorenzoD]

I honestly don't see how Pioneer could have overlooked this problem. You'd think they would have taken some of the first players off the assembly line, played the test tones, and saw that the subwoofer output level is about 13-15 dB lower than the rest of the channels. Other than this bass management issue, I think this is a very good player. I'll have to decide whether all of it's good aspects outweigh this bad one.

Maybe they overlooked it in favor of focusing on the I-Link interface. After all, that's the main reason anyone should buy this unit. Otherwise, it's just a 47A, right?

 

[Brian Gentry]

Tim,

Since you're comparing your settings using the BM in the 47Ai to the BM settings in your receiver, could you tell us what your settings on the reciever are?

If, for example, your settings have the mains at + and the sub at +, then this would explain your observations.

IMHO, the BM in your receiver should start with the mains set at 0 dB, and everything else tweaked to be balanced with the mains. Included in this process is manually changing the level of the sub until you can get it close to a 0 dB offset in the receiver *and* be balanced with the rest of the speakers. This will guarantee that the gains of your mains and sub will be very, very close. Thus, if the BM in the 47Ai is working "correctly", very little offset should be necessary between the mains and sub in the DVD player. I.E., you should be able to set the mains and sub very close to 0 dB in the DVD player.

It goes without saying that all of this must be done using an SPL meter.

 

[Tim Schwartz]

I had all levels set to 0 dB in my receiver except left surround at -1 dB because it's in a corner which gave it a slight boost. The sub amp was also set to 0 dB at 75 Hz crossover, which sounded balanced with the rest of the speakers. I realize to get things truly balanced I'll have to pick up a SPL meter, but you're exactly right with the statement:

Thus, if the BM in the 47Ai is working "correctly", very little offset should be necessary between the mains and sub in the DVD player. I.E., you should be able to set the mains and sub very close to 0 dB in the DVD player.

That's the problem, it's NOT close to 0 dB. To get it close, I have to set the sub to +6 and the rest to -6.

 

[Tom Grooms]

My neighbor brought the 47AI home yesterday and I played around with it a little this afternoon. He has None of the problems you described Tim. He has Dynaudio 42's and a Velodyne HGS 15. We had to set his sub down 1db to level match in two channel SACD.

I have had people listen to my gear and ask where the missing bass is (and I have an HGS 18), they are the typical people that have the graphic equalizer set in the classic "V" formation and have 2 12" subs in their cars and don't know what the music is suppose to sound like. I'm not saying that's you, just that some people seem to listen to music with the lower octaves set 12-15db hot and think that's the way it is suppose to sound.

 

[KeithH]

Tom said:

they are the typical people that have the graphic equalizer set in the classic "V" formation and have 2 12" subs in their cars and don't know what the music is suppose to sound like. I'm not saying that's you, just that some people seem to listen to music with the lower octaves set 12-15db hot and think that's the way it is suppose to sound.

Hey, I wonder if we know the same people! To add to the stereotype, these are the people who turn up the volume on their car stereos when they are sitting at a red light. :rolleyes
This reminds me of that scene in Risky Business:
Father: "Joel, is this how I left the stereo?"
Joel: "No."
Father: "No!"

 

[Tim Schwartz]

Well I went out and bought a SPL meter and set everything up. I ended up with the following settings:

channel receiver level DV-47Ai level
left main +1 -2
center 0 -3
right main +1 -2
right sur. -3 -6
left sur. -4 -6
subwoofer -14 +6

This is with the sub's amp maxxed at +9 dB. So you can now see what I'm talking about. Look at the LARGE difference between the subwoofer settings on my THX Marantz SR-18 receiver and the THX DV-47Ai. The left surround could also stand to be lowered 1 dB on the DV-47Ai, but ther'e no more room for adjustment. It's a good thing my sub and receiver have such large adjustment ranges, or I wouldn't even be able to get it this close. So do you guys think this is just an anomoly in one unit?

 

[Tim Schwartz]

sorry it screwed up all the spacing

 

[Brian L]

The manual if specific to one job, meaning that the field will need to customize the code to their application.

Time, as I think you know from the 45A thread, my 45A has a very similar deal going on. Methinks something is amiss with both units.

As I posted elsewhere, I located some DTS test signals in addition to my DD signals on Avia, and got similar results...the bass output is down relative to the mains (although the DTS test signals did give me a bit more bass than DD).

I guess the only way to get this fully sorted out is to drag a unit in to a Pioneer service shop (and pray that they have any clue whatsoever what you are talking about).

Anyone wanna bet that if a unit goes in for service it comes out "no problem found" or "they all do that"?

Since I have been able to dial mine in (albiet without a lot of adjustment room to spare) I am disinclined to pull it out of the rack and let the techs have a look.

FWIW, I would be shocked if the bench techs would find this unless you sat there with them and walked then through testing with an SPL meter and Avia. Joe Six-Pack would probably never notice, its only HT geeks like us that find this stuff!

BL

 

[Tim Schwartz]

Brian,

I'm not taking mine to any service center. I may return it in a week or two, when they have some new units in. I've got things pretty close to where they should be, I just don't like the way I had to do it. Hopefully this was just a problem on the first units off the assembly line.

Hey Tom,

Did you have the mains set to small in the DV-47Ai's setup?
Also, were the main's and sub's levels both set to the same value? By the way I'm originally from Belleville, IL. Go Cards!! After watching last nights game, it looks like they've got their hands full with the Giants.

 

[Tom Grooms]

Also, were the main's and sub's levels both set to the same value?

yup!

Tim, Why is your receiver's sub output set down 14db? What happens when you set the receiver sub output flat?

 

[Tim Schwartz]

It has to be set down 14 dB to compensate for the Subwoofer amp being set to +9(it's max). Which is set to +9 to compensate for the SUPER LOW subwoofer output of the DV-47Ai(that I have). The 5.1 channel outputs from the DV-47Ai come through the receiver with NO processing(just volume control), into the receiver amps, and out to the speakers. It sounds like the one I have is bad and the one you have is normal.

If I turned the receiver sub output to flat, the sub channel would be 14 dB higher than the rest of the channels on all radio, CD, DTS, and DD signals processed in the receiver(i.e. any signal not coming through the 5.1 inputs from the DV-47Ai).

 

[Ron S]

Okay, recalibrated EVERYTHING.

The 696 has the sub at +1, and I had to go all the way to +6 on the 47Ai in order to get reference. But it got there, and without having to turn up the sub's amp (still just a smidge past half-way). The left main is set to 0 on the 696, and +3 on the dvd (for comparison), so it does seem like the sub out is a little weak. But only a little, and well within a frame that can be fixed. I suppose I could crank up the sub amp a bit if I wanted to, but I have everything where it should be now, so no point.

What amp are you using for your sub, Tim?

Other than that variable, the only thing I can see is perhaps an anomolous unit?

Ack, need to do some soccer dad stuff, will continue later...

 

[Tim Schwartz]

Ron that's nothing, if your sub amp is near neutral and it's only off by 3-5 dB. My sub is an M&K V-125 with a built in amp.

 

[Ron S]

Tim, that's a good sub :frowning:
Not sure what the problem may be. Hmm, the 20-39 SVS is run by a Samson 700 amp. 700 watts total, 350 per side. Maybe the 47 needs to be run with strong amps? Would explain why I'm not having a problem sub-wise. Would also explain the lower output from the 696... Know anyone with a sub/amp you could borrow to test that theory? Would suck if 125 watts wouldn't be enough. Maybe we missed some setting in the setup menu? I *DO* recall someone posting a review of the regular 47A, saying its output was too *strong*. Would be nice if that was an easy fix, but I'm pretty sure I went through all of the relevant menus, and don't recall anything. Puts us back to the anomolous unit theory. Couldn't hurt to try a replacement unit. At the worst, you'd end up in the same boat you are now.
On a different note, I've been putting my unit it through its paces. I've given up on the optical output. Too much of a PITA to switch between opt/multichannel on the receiver. As a side benefit, I've found the DD and DTS decoders on the player to be superb, making the receiver's role moot in this point.
The video playback quality is stunning. I really am surprised to see this much of an improvement over the rp56. And I'm not the only one who sees it. My wife, who doesn't use the HT as often as I do, even commented on how much better the picture is. Perhaps the video alone is close to worth the price. Just my perspective.
DVD-A is even more balanced on multichannel playback since the recalibration, and still great on stereo as well. I think this is because my surrounds were set too high. Must have had a TIA while calibrating the first time around. To my ears, there is no question the audio is superior to the redbook on the comparisons I've made. The vocals of Gramm on Foreigner stand out. And the bass from the Corrs "In Blue" is dead on, nicely balanced.
On the SACD side, I also have no direct comparison to other SACD players. It's likely that a dedicated player like the Sony 555ES does a better job at it. But what I'm hearing is just plain beautiful. The highs are more detailed, airy, and the songs overall seem much more "crisp", without being too bright. I think I've read on another thread on this forum about the stereo discs not taking advantage of the bass management. No question that this does NOT apply, at least to my player. Sub output is clearly there, and seamless.
All in all, I'm quite pleased with it. It took a bit of work to set up correctly, but considering all it does, I believe it to be worth it.
Ahh, now it's off to enjoy the remainder of the DTS version of "Speed".

 

[Bipin_P]

I finally got my 47Ai calibrated. The sub output seems normal. I ended up with the exact same sub setting for the multichannel input which I had for my Sony 222ES. The DVD-Audio playback is clearly superior to the Panasonic RP-82 I had previously and the SACD playback is also better than the Sony 222ES.

 

[DanielSmi]

could it be that you guys are sending the bass through 2 crossovers the one in the 47ai and the one in your receiver or sub. Just a thought.

Daniel Smith

 

[Paul Arnette]

Hi all.

I just purchased one of these players this past Saturday, and as I was setting it up tonight I noticed that the power cord hangs pretty limp in the power socket at the back of the player.

It still receives power, however it seems a little shoddy to me for such an expensive player. Has anyone else noticed this with their Pioneer DV-47Ai? I'm wondering if there is something wrong with my player in particular. I honestly prefer the power socket on my old Pioneer DV-37.

Thanks.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Me thinks that for whatever reason, some people have the sub/LFE level problem, and some don't.

I have a 45a, and I do not not really have the problem. If I adjust the 45a's sub output using Avia and a digital connection to my pre/pro, I get -2 dB on my pre/pro. When I use Avia and the analog outputs from the 45a, I need to adjust the 45a's sub out put to +3, for a swing of 5 dB. The mains on my pre/pro and 45a are all within 2 dB of 0 dB. (Not "referenced", just level matched.)

 

[John Haghighi]

SACD and iLink aside,
Is this player better than the DV-38A?
Mainly concerned with Audio/Video performance and build quality.

I notice that the DV-38A still has a high price tag? I'm curious if there will be a DV-48i?