Phono Pre-amps: Talk to me.... (1 Viewer)

[Jack Keck]

I had one last thought regarding using an integrated amp or receiver such as my NAD 3045. That is that some of these pieces, mine in particular, have inputs for TWO turntables. This may or may not matter to anybody, but at least two people have mentioned comparing two tutntables (direct vs. belt drive). Something like this would make such a process easier.

Just a random thought.

 

[RAF]

A quick update to this whole topic (I've been busy with administrivia elsewhere and June is the time for weddings, retirement luncheons, dinners, etc. so I'll be very hard pressed to take care of everything in the next two weeks.)
I couldn't resist brushing off the Dynaco PAS-2 preamplifier (from the days when "processor" was someone who handed you a summons) and trying it out with my AR turntable, all connected into an input of the Outlaw 950. A most interesting experience. Let me say at the outset that this is going to be a project that requires some time, but it is definitely going to be worth pursuing. (Thus the disclaimer above since this won't be done this weekend.)
I connected the turntable up to the Dynaco and, surprisingly, everything turned on and moved. Unfortunately, there is a lot of work to be done with the Dynaco at this point, and even with the AR turntable. The pre-amp hasn't been used in over a decade and the turntable probably for much longer than that. Oxidation and deterioration of the plugs and jacks was apparent and I also question the integrity of the wires sending the signal to the preamp from the turntable. Also, for those of you familiar with the AR turntable, the dampening mechanism obviously needs cleaning/adjustment. But I did get sound (didn't use a "critical" piece of vinyl, just an Al Hirt record that has seen better days - Honey in the horn) and with a bit of playing around with the stylus geometry could listen to the music.
Then it hit me. My B&O Beogram 4002 turntable - a linear model that needs a lot of work but might be worth it down the road - wasn't going to bail me out, but I remembered that I had "inherited" a Sony PS-T2 Direct Drive Turntable from my parents. Let me explain. My parents hardly ever listened to records in their waning years so, maybe the turntable has a dozen hours of use on it. And it was taken care of very well (no kids playing with it, etc.) Essentially, it was brand new (and stored so that oxidation hadn't taken a toll.) Sort of like a time warp situation.
So, even though this probably doesn't have individual specs as good as the other turntables (although the variable strobe feature does allow for some very nice speed regulation and it appears to have a wide variety of adjustments on the tone arm) I figured let me couple up the Sony PS-T2 with the Dynaco since that will treat my vinyl a bit better.
Even with the "warts" of a long neglected PAS-2 preamp (I cleaned the contacts of the input/output jacks but didn't open the case to clean the pots -- they crackle a bit) I was very pleased with what I heard. First of all, no hum(!) so that's a good starting point. Secondly, the turntable treated even the old records nicely with very little cracking and popping (I was expecting a lot more.) I won't kid you. We're not talking about a S/N ratio of 100 here so my subwoofers aren't about to get a "Das Boot" type of challenge and the dynamic range is LP style not SACD.
But....
(and this is the "but" that keeps vinyl going)
there was something about the sound coming out of Al Hirt's horn that just made it seem like he was in the room. I can't really quantify it and the digital demons (which I'm sometimes a co-conspiritor with) would probably have a field day with their measuring equipment. I'm just saying that the quality of the sound, even with a limited dynamic range, was way more than I expected. Can it really be that a good sounding pre/pro can make old sources sound better than they ever did to me? I guess the limitation wasn't all in the vinyl as I had originally thought.
And I'm sure it will get even better as I begin to tweak everything. So what's next?....
Well, I will have to rebuild the Dynaco since I'm sure that a lot of the switches and pots and jacks need some cleaning. But that's a back burner project. There's always my NAD 7175PE integrated amp (which I can have back in about 4 months) but there's another problem. Once using the Dynaco I realized that there has to be a better solution than such a big box just to use the phono pre-amp (and my NAD is even bigger.)
So, my short term solution? A $120 one. I ordered a Parasound phono pre-amp from audio advisor (quick and easy since my time is limited). Yes, there are other choices (the Creeks, the Gram Amp2 and others) but price and availability were more problematic for what might be a temporary solution. I can always use the Parasound in a secondary system if I ever get the other turntables going and move on to another phono pre-amp. Besides, even the Parasound, with more modern electronics than the Dynaco (and without the age-related warts) will give me a more modern, easily hidden phono stage for now.
With well over 600 records (probably more, I stopped cataloging them years ago when CD appeared) there a lot of stuff that certainly deserves a listen and $120 seems like a small amount of money to invest to get back into the mix.
Of course, as with anything I realize that this $120 may end up being the most expensive $120 I ever spent.

Like HT, vinyl is never having to say you're satisfied. There go my Sundays! (to paraphrase the old joke)

I'll let you know how things sound when the preamp arrives. Stay tuned....

 

[Saurav]

Can it really be that a good sounding pre/pro can make old sources sound better than they ever did to me?

That's funny

 

[RAF]

Thanks, Saurav.

Actually, since I've tried the pre-pro in both normal analog and bypass analog mode the real issue is probably how good the amps are. I'm convinced that the amps I'm using today (and also the speakers) are better than what I used in the 50's and 60's. Of course, the ST70 was no slouch so maybe the speakers are the key.

Whatever.

I'm pleased with the preliminary sound and I look forward to trying the vinyl out with a modern phono pre-amp stage.

 

[Saurav]

The name's Saurav

I'm pleased with the preliminary sound and I look forward to trying the vinyl out with a modern phono pre-amp stage.

I'd be interested in knowing how the PPH-1 compares to the PAS-3 too. Please keep us posted. Also, if you're handy with a soldering iron, I believe there are easy mods one can do to the Parasound (opamp, capacitor swaps) that take it's performance up by several notches.

 

[RAF]

I'd be interested in knowing how the PPH-1 compares to the PAS-3 too. Please keep us posted. Also, if you're handy with a soldering iron, I believe there are easy mods one can do to the Parasound (opamp, capacitor swaps) that take it's performance up by several notches.

You are reading my mind. In my research on the various phono pre-amps I read the reviews (audio review?) of the parasound unit where a person had switched some parts out for some others for about $40 total. I think that at some point I will be tempted to e-mail that individual for some details and sources.
Stay tuned....

 

[Saurav]

I think that at some point I will be tempted to e-mail that individual for some details and sources.

If you do, I'd love to know how that goes.

 

[Bob_L]

Can new electronics make your old vinyl sound better than you remember?
Yup.
My wife is a digital snob and only remembers LP's as snap, crackle and pop devices. She is constantly surprised while I'm listening to music when I point out that I'm listening to a record and she isn't hearing any surface noise.
And, as RAF knows, I had exactly the same experience he just had, only a few weeks earlier. We're not talking the same S/N ratios or dynamic range of CD. And I know all the digital nerds will now have to chime in with their negative arrogance -- screw 'em. But vinyl DOES have an element of reality that PCM CD's lack. Go figure. (I still haven't jumped on the SACD or DVD-A train yet so I can't compare those.)
And, RAF, you can thank me in person the next time you're in LA.

 

[RAF]

Can new electronics make your old vinyl sound better than you remember?
Yup.

Bob_L,
Yes. You are absolutely correct. We sometimes forget in our quest to wax nostalgic (no vinyl pun intended) that some of our early electronics had limitations themselves. Let me put it this way - I totally agree with your wife's observation regarding a much lower level of surface noise when listening to vinyl, even on older turntable equipment through some new electronics such as new amps and pre-amps. That's why I think the addition of a "modern" phono pre-amp stage will contribute even more to the sound.
The records I've listened to are definitely cleaner sounding than I remembered them. I'm beginning to think that my SAE "click and pop" machine, the 5000, may not be needed. (Of course I'll try it to see what effect it has, but I must keep in mind that it falls into that "older electronics" category.)
I knew my 950 pre-pro was going to improve my sound - I just didn't expect it to improve my vinyl sound. But hearing is believing. (And, for the record, I would think that if you substituted "Rotel" or "Anthem" or whatever for my Outlaw there would be a similar sonic enhancement of vinyl.)
As to thanking you personally in LA, that might be arranged, but recognition of your astute vinyl status here on the HTF is probably a much bigger feather in your electronic cap.

And yes, double digit dB dynamic headroom from vinyl isn't triple digit dB digital headroom from modern media like SACD and my subwoofers need not worry. But, like you said, there is something about the sound of vinyl....
The closest I can come in what is probably a poor analogy is the difference you can see but not really explain between tape and film (with film and vinyl being on the same side of the analogy).
And to anticipate the question, "Why didn't you ever try connecting a turntable to your Denon 5700?" I did, but the hum was unbearable. I don't know why I'm not getting hum from the 950, even through the Dynaco, but I'm not complaining. Better late than never.

 

[RAF]

*** Update ***
My Parasound P/PH-100 phono pre-amp arrived today and I immediately placed it into my system - Sony PS-T2 direct drive turntable, Parasound P/PH-100, Outlaw 950 pre/pro (mostly in Analog Bypass mode), Outlaw 755 and Marantz Monoblock Amps, M&K 150S speakers.
That sound you don't hear is the grin on my face.

Very, very nice and a lot cleaner sound than I had expected. A couple of quick observations.

• As I stated before, when trying everything out with my ancient Dynaco phono preamp stage, dynamic range is nothing close to SACD or even redbook CD but what is there is there very cleanly. "Presence" is the term that comes to mind.
• Yes, new electronics can and does improve the sound of old vinyl. I took out some records that I was very familiar with (such as Sheffield Labs Harry James, etc.) and they sounded better than I remembered them.
• The Sony PS-L2 turntable that I had on my shelf (used probably 12 hours so essentially brand new) is actually much nicer than I thought it would be. Lots of flexibility and adjustment and works very smoothly. I actually found the manual and have set it up to specs (balance, anti-skating, overhang, etc.) The cartridge is probably middle grade but (a) It's not damaging my vinyl and (b) that's something I can look into upgrading later if I wish. Also the B&O Beogram 4000 linear turntable awaits refurbishing so I can try out some linear playback with no skating at some future date (the AR turntable probably can't be brought up to the specs of the Sony at this point so I'll probably just keep it as a memory). Lots of potential improvements here if I choose to go that route.
• The Parasound P/PH-100 is definitely worth the $120 I paid, especially since I already own so much vinyl. Simple, effective, easy to set up and use and it does the job. The fact that you can open it up and invest about $40 in some upgraded parts (capacitors, etc.) to make it perform right up there with the Big Boy$ is a challenge that I will accept at some point in the future.
• With so many unwatched movies I found myself flipping through my LPs (I thought I had about 600 but its probably closer to 1000) and finding gems all over the place. Vox Boxes, some classics from the fifties, lots of jazz, classical (DG and Archiv), comedy (Lenny Bruce, Shelley Berman, Bob Newhart, Tom Lehrer, Theodore) etc. etc. etc. Damn! I may never leave the house again.

Thanks for all the help (I think!!)

 

[Saurav]

You think?

 

[Bob_L]

Congratulations, Robert.

It really IS magical, isn't it? To return to all those old friends and discover that they may be even more wonderful than you remembered them.

 

[Philip Hamm]

After reading this thread I may have to invest in a turntable for my Sherwood Newcastle 9080 after all.

 

[RAF]

Yes, Saurav, I said I think, not because of any disrespect to anyone here, but all this phono pre-amp and vinyl talk is going to cost me a lot of money at some point. I feel it in my bones. Comes with the territory.
What did we used to say? (With apologies to Love Story):

Hi-Fi is never having to say you're satisfied.

 

[Saurav]

Hi-Fi is never having to say you're satisfied.

I'll find it in my heart to forgive you for that one