Phono Pre-amps: Talk to me.... (1 Viewer)

[RAF]

I have been told by a number of people that I should take advantage of the sound capabilities of my 950 to re-introduce myself to my vinyl collection. As you know, one of the things missing from the 950 and most modern pre/pros is a phono stage so I'm in the market for something reasonable here. I don't want to spend a huge amount of money, but I would like to get something that produces good bang for the buck if that's possible.

I have both an AR turntable and a B&O 4002 (which needs work but I might invest in if the AR doesn't work out). I believe both have MM cartridges.

Audio Advisor is selling a Parasound P/PH-100 phono pre-amp (which does both MM and MC) for $129 (including shipping). Someone else mentioned a Rotel (but I can't find a part number or a source).

Anyone have any recommendations? Is the Parasound worth the money? I read the Stereophile (June, 2002) article on phono pre-amps and some of them sound intriguing but a little hard to locate. Also, I like the flexibility of an MM/MC dual capability design. Anything else I'm missing here?

What say you?

(Let's not make this into a Vinyl vs. Digital debate here. I'm aware of both sides of this and I simply want to start using my long idle vinyl a bit in the 950 world.)

Thanks in advance.

 

[Norm Strong]

If you want to play vinyl, why did you buy a 950, which is notable for having no phono stage?

 

[Michael Hurst]

The Rotel phono pre-amp is the RQ-970 and lists for $199 USD, street price is probably around $175. I also like Parasound gear, strong powerful sound without being harsh; however, I've never heard their phono pre-amp. For the people that are not faint of wallet, the best phono pre-amp is the Linn Linto. If the price is to much you might be able to find a used one at Audiogon.

 

[Michael Hurst]

Norm, the best sound for a low output cartridge is thru the use of an external pre-amp. Most integrated phono stages in the Outlaw's price range are well, lacking. It's just that there are so few vinyl fans out there, the phono stage is an after thought.

 

[Bob_L]

Robert:

To get back into the vinyl action on the cheap, don't forget about the "Little Rat." It's a battery-powered phono preamp from Radio Shack that runs about $30, I believe, and many audiophiles swear by it.

At least, it's a no-brainer purchase until you decide you want to invest in something bigger.

 

[Saurav]

I have a "Little Rat", and can vouch for it heartily. It's fantastic for its price ($25), but make no mistakes, it's not the best phono stage under $1K or anything like that.

RAF, what's your budget? AR makes (made) some very good 'tables, and depending on the quality of cartridge you have on there (and assuming the level of the rest of your system), you probably don't want the phono preamp being the weak link by a huge margin. At the same time, you probably don't want to invest too much up-front either.

The NAD PP-1 gets decent reviews, and can be found for around $150 new. The Rotel units are RQ-97x, as Michael said, and I don't remember if I've seen a 971 or 972 or not. These have received high praise from some people whose opinion I respect. The Parasound gets pretty good reviews too. Between these three, I would probably pick the Rotel, based on my memories of what I'd read back when I was trying to pick a phono stage. If you want to move up a notch, Creek makes some pretty good phono stages. They're different units for MM and MC though, and supposedly more susceptible to RFI than others.

And I probably don't need to say this - spend a lot of time and patience in setting up your turntable and cartridge. That will probably make a bigger difference to the sound than your phono stage purchase decision.

 

[Charles Gurganus]

Saurav pretty much nailed this...I think the Nad PP-1 can be had through soundcity.com for around $100. Then the Parasound you mentioned and the Rotel are good as well. I bought the Creek OBH-8 through audioadvisor and can vouch for that. So that is 4 choices from $100 to $200 and it depends on how much you want to put into this. I'd probably spend about the same on the cartridge as whatever phono stage you get or close to 40% anyway. (If you had $300 to spend, get about a $120 cart and $180 for the stage)

 

[Saurav]

RAF, there's a current thread on Audio Asylum that might be of interest to you. Of course, there are zillions of archived threads on the same (or similar) topics:
http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t...vinyl&m=130716

 

[RAF]

Thanks for the replies. Lots of good information here. I'm going to investigate a little further.

If you want to play vinyl, why did you buy a 950, which is notable for having no phono stage?

Norm,
You are twisting my thoughts around, although I'm not saying that you did this intentionally. Maybe I didn't make myself clear.
My original goal wasn't to play vinyl, but to upgrade my HT to separates with a pre/pro. The 950 fills that niche very, very competently. So much so that it has been suggested by many people whose opinions I respect that I consider adding a phono pre-amp to revive my vinyl listening. I already have quite a large collection that has been lying fallow for many years as well as a couple of turntables (an original AR that still works - not much to go wrong with that classic - and a B&O Beogram 4002 linear turntable that can be restored if I get more serious about this.)
As others have mentioned, not having a phono pre-amp stage has become the rule rather than the exception in most of the modern pre/pros so I do not consider this a deficiency of the 950 or any other such equipment. In fact, a good case could be made for separating the phono preamp stage from the other electronics so that's not an issue here.
I really don't want to invest a lot of money in case I don't find myself listening to vinyl a lot (some friends swear I will be listening a lot). Something in the under $200 range seems like a pretty good budget for my needs on this.
The "Rat" seems intriguing as a "no brainer" but can anyone supply the Radio Shack Part Number for this under $30 throwaway item so I could check it out?
The Parasound is easy to get from Audio Advisor (I've dealt with them before and they have great customer service) and seems to have what I need. The Creeks have plusses and minuses from what I can gather. Nice units but possible RFI issues and you have to commit to MM or MC instead of both.
And thanks for the audio asylum link, Saurav. Very informative. It's good to see people getting as passionate about Vinyl & Co., as they do about Outlaw products.

Incidentally, one of the things that triggered my renewed interest in all this is the prices that I saw being asked for used vinyl at the NYC HT Expo last weekend. Sheeesh. I have lots of the stuff that was there - bought when it first cam out (and stored properly!)
Definitely worth a shot. I might even resurrect my SAE 5000 click & pop machine (remember that one?)
Once again, thanks for the responses. Keep the thoughts coming and someone provide an RS part number for the RAT if possible.
Good show!

 

[Nicholas Renter]

I've got a Rotel RQ-970BX on order, and should have it sometime this week. I'm matiching with with a Music Hall MMF-5 turntable (and other Rotel / B&W hardware). For the price, you really can't beat it. There are definately better phono pre-amps, and when looking for on in the under $300 - $350 US price range, it can be frustrating. If you think people are opinionated about their speakers, amps and cables...wait until you experience a phono pre-amp cat fight.
Like everything in life, there must be balance. A $300 phono pre-amp may be better than the $200 Rotel RQ-970BX, but I'd rather spend that additional money on a good carbon fiber brush and some Disc Doctor cleaning supplies (http://www.discdoc.com). You'll get a bigger bang for your buck if you do.
Then go hit the used book stores for some great vinyl. Welcome back to the silky-smooth sounds of the good life.

 

[BrentPollard]

Nicholas
Did you order your RQ 970 in silver? I just ordered one along with a 1066 and was told both were available in silver, but I'm a little skeptical.

 

[Nicholas Renter]

No...I went all black. I wasn't bold enough to go all silver. I also bought a 1066, 1095, and 1080 (tuner). If I would have been able to check out the silver look in the store before committing to it, I may have done it. But I wasn't going to do it sight unseen.

 

[IraSWeiss]

Robert;
I have an SAE 5000 myself somewhere in my basement. You will need to put it between the phone preamp and the 950 as very few pre-pros and receivers have a tape monitor switch/loop these days. Of course, rice krispies would be cheaper...
I'm in the process of copying many of my lps to CD-R myself with my nearly two decade old Yamaha 750/Shure V15Type VMR.
Here is a link the the rat shack page...
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...Fid=970%2D1018
Here is the model number: 970-1018

 

[Saurav]

AFAIK, the Rat is out of order at most RS store, maybe even online. Or maybe they ended the old one and started with a new one, which is the same product with a different part number... something like that. You can also search eBay for "Radio Shack preamp", someone's been selling these fairly regularly. He doesn't use the word 'phono' in his auction title, so he's a little hard to find.

In fact, a good case could be made for separating the phono preamp stage from the other electronics so that's not an issue here.

Very true. If I had to remove only one thing from an integrated all-in-one processor, it would be the phono stage. A cartridge's output is in single digit millivolts or less - some preamps have noise floors that are higher. The last thing you want to do with such a fragile signal (which needs to be amplified a thousand times before it becomes a 'CD-like' line level signal) is put it in the same enclosure with a bunch of digital processing circuitry.

 

[RAF]

Ira,
Thanks for the link! It is appreciated. And yes, one of the things in the back of my mind was dumping some Vinyl to CD (I know, sacrilege - but I can't seem to get my turntable to work in my car without skipping!)

Yes, the SAE 5000 will probably be dusted off a bit once I'm up and running. Fairly easy to introduce into the mix with an outboard phono-preamp.

Then go hit the used book stores for some great vinyl.

Nicholas,
I don't have to go any further than my own storage area. Lots of gems untouched for many many years. I have a sizable record collection (although nothing as big as my video collection.)

 

[Jack Keck]

If I wanted to play lps through my Pioneer receiver, which like your Outlaw 950, has no phono input, I'd use teh pre-amp section of my NAD 3045 amp by running the tape out into an appropriate input on the receiver. You might want totry something like that if you have an old stereo receiver or integrated amp lying around.
Of course, this would take up quite a bit of room on your rack.:frowning:

 

[PomingF]

Robert, costing a bit more than the RS, NAD & Parasound Micheal Fremer has in the current issue of Stereophile's analog corner a review on several 'affordable' phono stages incl the Lehmann, Zanden, etc.

PF

 

[Ted Kim]

I would also like to recommend Lehmann Audio's Black Cube ~$595 list, but often found on audiogon for about $350 and Gram Slee's Gram 2SE, which got recently reviewed in Absolute Sound and stereophile and is available for $219 new from lpgear.com
http://www.gspaudio.com/
Both are on my final list for phono. If you need adjustable gain, the Lehmann has it, but not the 2SE. From what I understand, either of these should be better than the Parasound or NAD options for not much more $$$. I've also considered the "Little Rat" but you would need to continually buy/recharge batteries and thus its operating costs over time would really add up.

 

[Saurav]

Why would rechargable batteries add up the operating cost over time? If you're talking about having to eventually replace even rechargable batteries, my response is: No one keeps equipment for that long
I really don't think the Little Rat is anywhere close to the Black Cube. This is an opinion based on hearsay, since I haven't heard the Black Cube.

 

[Ed Haze]

"Little Rat" is Cat.#: 970-1018. Available at 1-800-THE-SHACK, but be quick. They do not stay in stock long b/c of it's high demand. I received mine the other day, and have no complaints whatsoever.