PETITION: Low Bit-Rate 1080i 'HD-DVD' Does Not Serve Anybody's Best Interest.

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by ChrisA, Apr 7, 2002.

  1. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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    We are in the process of constructing a petition AGAINST the DVD Forum's decision to "Nix" Blue Ray HD-DVD and other WIDE BANDWIDTH optical delivery media such as FMD technology.
    http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwo...52.html#madness
     
  2. Justin Lane

    Justin Lane Cinematographer

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    Chris, Have you viewed any of these HD-DVD discs you are starting a petition against? I have a problem signing a petiton based on zero real world analysis.

    MPEG-4 is a better encoding codec then DVD's current MPEG-2. Who is to say the results would not be very pleasing on high-def material.

    That being said, I still think blu-ray is probably the way to go just due to the increased storage space, but until there are some hard facts, I am not going to jump to any conclusions.

    J
     
  3. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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  4. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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    Why does Japan get all the good stuff, and get it first?
     
  5. Steve Tannehill

    Steve Tannehill Ambassador

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    Having not seen the format in question, I will not sign a petition against it.

    - Steve
     
  6. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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    Again, the petition is against low-bitrate, low bandwidth HD-DVD. The goal is to support a wide bandwidth optical based techonolgy and not to place on the market an uneccessary interim format for the reasons listed in the first post.

    You do not NEED to see it because the comparision is already available --What we are petitioning for is an optical format which is 'quality equivalent' to D-VHS. Cetainly. We need to chose a compression format that works best utilizing the advantages of a wide bandwidth format.

    Studios have not even optimised the CURRENT DVD format and continue to use poor methodlogy and egde enhancement. We should not introduce a low-bitrate HD-DVD format when it is already ackowledged, and quite clear that high bandwidth optical media are already soon to be released.

     
  7. Justin Lane

    Justin Lane Cinematographer

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    Chris,
    We, the enthusiasts, will have to be the early adopters for this HD-DVD using red laser technology to ever get off the ground. IF the quality is not there, I know I will not buy the product and probably many others will do the same thing causing the format to die on its own.
    Just because a format uses compression does not equate to automatic terrible quality
    http://mpeg.telecomitalialab.com/sta...g-4/mpeg-4.htm
    This link provides some very nice info on MPEG4. From reading it appears on paper MP4 can do HDTV at acceptable levels. I also noticed in my University's library this week there was a new book that came in laying out all of the varios MPEG encoding schemes, which may contain some handy info. I will try to sign this out next week and do a little research myself.
     
  8. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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    I am not interested in what studios and DVD forum members consider "acceptable" quality. Acceptable quality in my definition is equal or better than what the D-VHS, D-theater offers.

    It is quite clear that what is being sought is which algorithm works best at high compression rates. If we needed to achieve 2048p or 4096p utilizing wide bandwidth, then these high compression algorithms might be critical. Since we are only desiring 1080i/p, then we need to emphasize how to best utilize wide bandwidth formats to achieve maximum quality. Further, we need to continue to hammer home the importance of high quality audio. Red Laser DVD is DEAD for the future and THEY KNOW IT. To let them MILK it further is against the consumers best interests.

    While the advancement of compression algorithms is in everybody's best interest, this does not mean the goal is to achive the highest compression possible while maintaining "acceptable" quality. Considering that wide-bandwidth optical media are well on the way, we simply do not want or need a lower quality, low bandwidth delivery medium. We need to seek methods to take best advantage of wide bandwidth delivery medium. My goal is to be able to pay to buy an optical medium which is identical to the master, or as close to the master as possible.

    [rant]No narrow bandwidth medium, regardless of algorithm can compete with the same algorithm running at a wider bandwidth. We also have the ability to end overly compressed audio--significantly improving audio quality with a wide bandwidth format. Further, since wide bandwidth is clearly the future, we should be emphasizing which algorithm will provide the highest degree of quality running in the 20+ mbps range. [/rant]

    Full bitrate DTS is no problem on a wide bandwidth format. For those who don't like DTS for one reason or the other, then my statement mearly reflects any audio format which can take advantage of a wider bandwidth format. We could even use a lossless compression scheme such as MLP. In any case, the advantages of wide bandwidth are crystal clear.

    Isn't it a shame that we only have DD and DTS to pick from? I detest DD vs DTS debates myself. I wish I could just pick JOE SCHMOE's algorithm or MLP for that matter.
     
  9. Rhett_Y

    Rhett_Y Screenwriter

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    Chris.

    I see where you are going with this! Count me in!

    R~
     
  10. Steve Tannehill

    Steve Tannehill Ambassador

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  11. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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    The current digital masters are stored as D5 1080p 24 fps. Bjoern can speak more about this topic. There is no doubt that the digital master format will also continue to evolve-- the D5 1080p masters will not always be the best masters.

    In any case, comparison with the current best digital master is the current gold standard.

    Issue 60, May, of WSR will contain an exclusive report on a comparison between the D-5 studio master of Universal's U-571 and the D-VHS D-Theater release.
     
  12. Jonathan Burk

    Jonathan Burk Second Unit

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  13. Sean Bryan

    Sean Bryan Sean Bryan

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    I am certailny FOR any attempt to convince the powers that be to make the next optical disc format for pre-recorded movies the BEST IT CAN BE with the technology currently available.

    I am certainly AGAINST the idea that it's OK for us to get an interim, highly compressed, HD-DVD format 2 years from now and then ANOTHER less compressed HD-DVD format in 10 years or something. Do it once and do it right (and don't do what you are doing if soemone else is doing it BETTER with video tape)!

    I won't pretend to know the specifics of the technical arguments. However, I find it reasonable to say to the DVD forum that they should take a look at what D-VHS will offer as far as IMAGE FIDELITY (and sound). If what they are planing on developing for HD-DVD cannot equal that quality (on TAPE no less!), then they should know that what they are proposing will not be of interest to the HIGH END market (which is really the only group that these issues are relevant to). If what they are developing can match that image fidelity, then by all means bring it on!

    Saying that a proposed model of compression "can be acceptable" makes me cringe, and I can't understand why anyone here who has agoniozed over trying to squeeze out that last drop of performance from their systems (even though most average people wouldn't see the problems many here are annoyed by) wouldn't be put off by that as well.

    All I have read so far about the proposed highly compressed HD-DVD format always refers to it as being able to perform in a way that would be "acceptable". I have yet to hear someone who is actually working on this say "MPEG-4 can provide fantastic, or excellent, or unmatched high definition video". But acceptable? Sure it's acceptable. That can mean as much as "well, it looks good. It' not terrible being compressed this much. Etc, etc..." Oh, HIGH PRAISE!!

    So Chris is understandably concerned that we are going to be given something that is not as good as what we could be given. So am I. And so would, I hope, anyone who is obsessed with producing the highest quaity home presentation of movies.

    Why wait and say nothing while a new format is being developed (which may be great but also may not be) and then complain or just not buy it when it comes out if it is lacking??!!? If we have the chance to tell those who are in the early stages of development what we want and what our concerns are, why not just tell them in an informed organized way? Where is the harm in that?

    So I'll sign a petition that is offering constructive criticism to the DVD forum if it might help them better understand what the high-end market really wants from them. Since they will not be the only game in town anymore (D-VHS) it's going to be in their best interest to make the best product possible now, not later.

    Sean

    P.S.

    Thise whole petition process would probably be most helpful if it is a colaborative effort between this forum and others such as the AVS forum.
     
  14. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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    This thread is really about constructing the petition. Once we construct the petition, then we can go to HT SPOT, AVS FORUM, HT TALK etc... From there we can hope to get our petition noticed by members of the HT press...
     
  15. Richard Travale

    Richard Travale Producer

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    The problem with this is that it goes against the concepts of consumerism and capitalism. We know that they could give us the best format but then where would the studios and manufacturers be 10 years down the road? They would have already sold us the best available and not be able to do it again.

    That being said, Hell yeah I would like to see the blu-ray format become the norm in the next few years but realistically this is not going to happen no matter how much we petition, because the studios and manufacturers are not in the business of losing money and repeat consumers.
     
  16. Michael St. Clair

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    Frankly, when you throw in multiple soundtracks, the bitrate of DVD for MPEG-2 NTSC material is lower than optimal.

    I'm still of the opinion that this is about piracy.

    The studios now fear any format that you can stick into a computer, so tape is going to get the great quality, and disc is going to get watered-down HD.

    I'm withholding final judgement until I see DVD-bitrate 1920x1080 MPEG-4 encoded from high-detail, high-motion film sources. But I'm confident enough that it is going to be visibly weak compared to D-VHS that I'm willing to take early wagers.

    Of course, the studios will spin-doctor this as long as they can...don't expect any real-world comparisons to be available any time soon.
     
  17. Todd Hochard

    Todd Hochard Cinematographer

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  18. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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    Todd,

    We are uniting FOR something. We are even being kind enough to lay down relatively loose terms. The funny part is that DVD Forum manufacturese want to re-coup money spent on developing Blue Ray, however, it appears that FMD technology, which was apparently developed outside the DVD Forum, is superior to Blue Ray. I'd like to see FMD technology get the nod.

    In any case the premise is loosely defined as:

    No narrow bandwidth medium, regardless of algorithm can compete with the same algorithm running at a wider bandwidth. We also have the ability to end overly compressed audio--significantly improving audio quality with a wide bandwidth format. Further, since wide bandwidth is clearly the future, we should be emphasizing which algorithm will provide the highest degree of quality running in the 20+ mbps range.

    So at this point we agree on the need for both increased bandwidth and increased storage capacity. What I'm not so sure on is which algorithm provides the most superior results. From the reading on those websites, and as suggested by previous HT members might be 'Wavlet?' There was a sine/cosine algorithm that acheived greater resolution than any MPEG block based encoding.

    [rant]As a consumer, we want to chose the format that will provide the greatest bandwidth, the greatest storage capacity, and the algorithm that provides the greatest fidelity to the master-- which should use an algorithm will provide the highest degree of quality running in the 20+ mbps range, not the algorithm which is necessarily the most efficient [/rant]
     
  19. CamiloCamacho

    CamiloCamacho Stunt Coordinator

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    In a constructive way, this is what i expect from a new format:

    -Better compression than MPEG-2 (also, non propietary meaning: NO Microsoft codecs): Mpeg-4. (I do not want an uncompressed format, no way. Loosing to much bandwitch)

    -High Bandwitch: At least 5 times DVD Bandwitch.

    -Menus, multiples languages and no regional coding.

    -Two types of subtitles: Text(consume little space, initial-final time, size and font) and pictures(like today).

    -Mandatory OAR, and non-OAR presentation using Hardware techniques (No space wasted on those transfers; i.e. only Hardware Pan&Scan)

    -No PCM audio, only MLP(Same quality, half space).

    -Various resolutions (to use maximum at feature, less on documentaries and various)

    -Single layer, so no risk to loose your disc!!.
     
  20. DeanWalsh

    DeanWalsh Second Unit

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