Pearl Harbor, JP3, DD-EX Flag and Audio Dropouts - Who has 'em?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by John Morris, Dec 27, 2001.

  1. John Morris

    John Morris Guest

    It has been discovered that some newer DD-EX pre/pros and receivers are experiencing audio dropouts on both Pearl Harbor and Jurrasic Park 3. The problem apparently is due to a new type of DD-EX flag, being used on these DVDs, which also contains some information on the type of encoder used to manufacture the disc. This new information has been placed on the DD-EX flag as a type of anti-piracy code to help identify "real" DVDs. Unfortunately, this information confuses the DSP chip and causes it to self mute, causing the audio dropouts. Apparently, Dolby, LucasFilm and the manufacturers who use this DSP are all blaming each other for the problem. My understanding on this is sketchy at best, so if anyone has any more info, or corrections on this, please post it here so we all can read it.

    We have already seen by posts in this forum that the Onkyos are having this problem, and one person has reported that Onkyo will be replacing the DSP chips in the affected units.

    Who else is having audio dropouts when viewing these movies?
     
  2. David Head

    David Head Second Unit

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    John,
    I have an Onkyo 696 and do NOT have the problem. I have read at the HomeTheaterSpot that owners of the Denon 1602 and 1802 are also experiencing the same problem.
    The Onkyo website has this press release regarding the problem.
    In this thread, a representative from Dolby posted the following comment:
    Dolby has just posted the following statement at its website.
    >>It has come to our attention that a limited number of consumer electronics products equipped with Dolby Digital decoders—primarily A/V receivers—experience audio muting or dropout problems with some new DVD and/or digital television content. Dolby is actively investigating this problem and is working to identify a solution for consumers as quickly as possible.
    Thus far, Dolby, in cooperation with its customers and partners, has traced the issue to consumer equipment that misinterprets information found on some recently produced DVDs and digital broadcasts.
    Dolby and its partners are currently working with the content industry to disable the new features in these movies and broadcasts that trigger these problems. In conjunction with this effort, we are working with the manufacturers of the affected products to identify potential consumer solutions.
    Dolby will update this information as soon as a solution is identified.
     
  3. Gerard Martin

    Gerard Martin Second Unit

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    John
    I have seen a post the Outlaw
    1050 also had a problem with
    JP3, if this is correct it would appear to be an equal opportunity Dolby problem where all receivers can join in.
     
  4. Dalton

    Dalton Screenwriter

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    My Onkyo 797 has the problem but fortuneatly the problem discs also have DTS tracks that work fine. I would like this issue resolved asap before i get a disc that has the defective flag and no DTS alternative.
     
  5. Charles J P

    Charles J P Cinematographer

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    If this is truly a copywrite protection problem and not an accidental mastering/pressing problem, then this has GOT to stop. As soon as manufacturers are able to deviate from a standard for any kind of media (DVD, HDTV digital video standards or CD (see Universal)) they are essentially making old hardware obsolete. In the future, if a disk works on your obsolete hardware, it will be conicidense. It will be because either your hardware was one of the lucky ones not to be affected, or because that particular label has not decided to deviate from the 'standar' yet. This is really starting to anger and worry me. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  6. Eric_M

    Eric_M Stunt Coordinator

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    If and when Onkyo do fix the issue, if that's going to solve it, I wonder if it is better off waiting until they fix it before buying a new reciever.

    It says on the press release that future releases may have the same problem. I wonder what Onkyo or any other company will do to correct the older recievers. I take it they'd have to fix those as well.
     
  7. Bill Johnston

    Bill Johnston Stunt Coordinator

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    Well, life is starting to suck!!! My New Onkyo 595 and my Panisonic DV-53 (I think that's the model) have serious Audio Drop-outs for bother Jarasic Park and Pearl Harbor...
    I am not sure what to do... I got this set up only 2 weeks ago... Should I return it for a Kenwood VR-509... Or a Denon 1802... I don't know... Up till now everything sounded GREAT...
    [​IMG]
    I might print out the press release... Call the store I got it from, and request he gives me a honest answer by Monday...
    Is it the Pannisonic? Or the Onkyo? Or the DVD's?
    [​IMG]
    Bill
     
  8. Vegas 1

    Vegas 1 Supporting Actor

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    I have not experienced any drop-outs on either dvd, I'm using an older Marantz SR96 however which has 6channel input so I'musing the dvd players dts & dd decoders (Panasonic RV80) which I bought from you John. A great non-progressive scan player.

    Regards Al
     
  9. Peter Galbavy

    Peter Galbavy Auditioning

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    Off topic and in reply to 'Charled J P'; If you are worried about new media making old equipment obsolete, then you haven't come across the DMCA and the proposed 'Secure PC' from M$ ?

    While it may not seem that these issues affect home theater, the ideas behind the Secure PC are to provide the content owners (not the clutzes like you and me) with facilities to engineer much much much more protective mechanisms into home hardware. It will hit home theater if we don't watch out.
     
  10. Ron Reda

    Ron Reda Cinematographer

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    John Morris,
    Just the other day, I received this message from DVD Empire regarding the very problem you're talking about:
    "We have just been notified by Universal Studios that there may be a playback problem with the JURASSIC PARK 3 in certain makes of DVD players. Universal has said that this is not a problem with the disc, but rather a problem with the hardware located in the following makes of DVD players:
    Onkyo, Kenwood and Denon. The problem is a faulty DTS decoder chip that causes the disc to mute in certain places when the Dolby DTS 6.1 isolated track is selected from the main menu. JURASSIC PARK 3 is the first disc to show this defect, but there will most likely be others down the road.
    Dolby has notified the manufacturers of the particular machines listed above and they will be repairing them for the future. You may want to check your warranty and send your machine back to have it repaired."
    I had no problems with JP3 on my Panny RP91, but I was only watching it in DTS 5.1.
    Regards,
    Ron
     
  11. Ryan Schnacke

    Ryan Schnacke Supporting Actor

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    I watched Pearl Harbor last night, start to finish. In English DD 5.1 I had no audio dropouts except for the one expected dropout during the layer change. This is with an Onkyo 595 receiver and Toshiba SD1600 DVD player.

    It seems that the problem may not completely reside within the receiver since some Onkyo 595 owners have the problem and some do not. I suspect either the DVD players or the DVD's themselves.
     
  12. Lanny M

    Lanny M Agent

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  13. John Morris

    John Morris Guest

    Guys: I am not talking about a DTS problem, although if they added encoder info to that bitstream, it may also be confusing the DSP used for DTS.

    What I am talking about is only the DD-EX soundtracks of JP3 and PH. The info I obtained is very reliable and can be seen in all new Onkyo receivers which support 6.1/7.1 playback. The reason, as I understand it, is that starting with JP3 and PH, encoder info was added to the DD-EX flag portion(by Lucasfilms and Dolby?)to help the studios identify pirated discs. This info was not programmed into the software for these units and since the onboard decoding DSPs are not expecting it, it looks like garbage to the DSP. Most companies program their DSPs to instantly mute, when they start to read garbage, in order to avoid pops and other noises which can damage speakers. From what I've heard, Dolby and LucasFilm did not tell the manufacturers nor the DSP suppliers so their code did not include expecting to see the encoder/anti-piracy information.

    If Roger D. is around, maybe he can fill us in on Dolby's side of the story or correct the info that we already have on this issue.
     
  14. MartyV

    MartyV Auditioning

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    Hi,

    There seems to be many misconceptions with this problem which John Morris addresses well, to summarize:

    - This is not a hardware problem insofar as the DVD manufacturers are using the DD-EX track in a manner not intended for it to be used,

    - This problem is only found when the DVD's are played in the Dolby D 5.1 sound track, it is not associated with the DTS 5.1 tracks at all,

    - It is not a problem with the DTS DSP decoding chip as Universal states, but is a problem with Universal trying to use the DD-EX track for anti-copying information,

    - It is not related just to DVD players, but is related to any hardware that has automatic 6.1 DSP processing and could be DVD players, HT receivers, or decoders, (it is not an issue with equipment that doesn't have a 6.1 DSP),

    - This is not an isolated problem with Onkyo, but has affected most manufactures of high end audio equipment who is supporting the DD-EX 6.1 format.

    Now my 2 cents worth. I feel that it is the DVD manufactures responsibility to correct this problem and to cease using the DD-EX track in a manner that it was never intended to be used. I don't think that the hardware companies have any responsibility at all to fix this problem because their equipment will correctly play a normally encoded DD-EX sound track. Whether the hardware companies do something or not is totally up to them and if they do, it is because of their committed support to satifying their customers. Which doesn't say much for the DVD manufacturer who caused the problem in the first place.

    Marty.
     
  15. Ken Seeber

    Ken Seeber Supporting Actor

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    This problem didn't begin with "Jurassic Park III" and "Pearl Harbor," although they are by far the highest-profile releases.

    I'm experiencing the drop-outs on Anchor Bay's limited edition of "The Stuntman," which does have a Dolby Digital EX sound track. The disc was released in mid-November. My copy of "The Phantom Menace," released a month earlier, does not have the drop outs.

    My equipment consists of an Onkyo TX-DS595 receiver and Sony DVP-S300 DVD player.

    Someone in another thread has reported having problems with Anchor Bay's "The Beastmaster," which has Dolby Digital EX.
     
  16. Rick Radford

    Rick Radford Supporting Actor

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    I thought I'd read somewhere that the audio dropouts in DD were in English only. I just put in my copy of PH and tried it in French DD.. and found the same audio dropouts as in English DD.

    Sure am glad this also comes with DTS!

    (Onkyo 989/Panny RP91)
     
  17. Patrick R. Sklenar

    Patrick R. Sklenar Second Unit

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  18. Gerard Martin

    Gerard Martin Second Unit

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    Patrick
    Did you experience the audio
    dropouts in DD 5.1 on JP3 other 1050 owners have reported.
     
  19. Patrick R. Sklenar

    Patrick R. Sklenar Second Unit

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  20. BruceD

    BruceD Screenwriter

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    So why does Universal think they can just crap all over us, the consumer, and get away with this again without repercussions ????
    They just announced their copy protection scheme for CDs which will make all Universal music CDs UNPLAYABLE on DVD players, or CD players in computers, and even some automobile CD players. In other words it violates the redbook standards.
    I'm mad as hell and not going to take it anymore!!
    Universal media (CD and DVD) is off my purchase list FOREVER!!!
    BruceD
     

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