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Passive Studio Monitors vs. Speakers (1 Viewer)

MaxL

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Max Levine
klipsch subs are crap IMO. they sound about as good as taking $300 worth of change and dropping it from your roof onto a big plywood box - plenty of thump, zero sound quality.

klipsch speakers are not crap. they do have a specific sound, that you either like or don't. go listen to them, decide if you like them. do not buy a klipsch sub. when you hear a decent sub, you'll immediately realize a klipsch sub is a waste of $$ (until they actually make a decent one for the $$). unless you want that overdone bass from the trunk of a car in your very own home sound... the klipsch sub can simulate that.

there have been a few things the allstar has mentioned that have made me question his advice. this ices it.

i don't know much about studio monitors. that's why i didn't say anything sooner. i read the links above and found them very informative. it seems the only conclusion one might draw is that passive monitors tend to do a little better being pushed to extreme volumes for extended loud listening. but that's still a maybe depending on your listening habits and room. but the response isn't inherently flatter nor the the sensitivity more efficient.

while i don't disregard completely speaker power recommendations, they are only slightly more useful than knowing the finish color when it comes to sound. anything at or above 90db sensitivity is a very efficient speaker. klipsch may be more efficient than most, but don't think for a second that a speaker rated at 87db can't blow your eardrums with proper amplification. my main 2 channel setup uses a receiver rated @ 40Wpc rms and relatively inefficient speakers in a large room over 5,000 cubic feet. i have never come close to not having enough power to play music louder than i can stand it.

the point is, don't buy speakers by the numbers, and don't trust anyone who tells you that you should. the numbers are not all meaningless, but they can't tell you how a speaker sounds and they can be very misleading. over time, to remain competitive, companies that are looking for big market share have to make their products look good on paper. inevitably, the numbers go up for the appearance of quality and value... "look those yamasonic speakers say 500 watts and they half the price of those diptech ones that are only 400 watts... what a bargain!?" those numbers aren't pulled out of thin air, but unless you know what the THD is at a specified output or you know it to be a very reputable speaker manufacturer, take any numbers with a few tbs of salt.

as for receiver/amp numbers, they're worth a little more. again watch for THD ratings, just make sure they're under 1%. anything rated to 75W rms should drive most speakers to the limits of what you can safely listen to in a typical home room. the difference between 100W and 110W is negligible in terms of real world sound. it takes double the amps to get a 3bd rise in spl - so if a speaker plays 103db at 64W, it's going to take 128W to make the jump to 106db. 10W just doesn't get you much at the high end.

sorry for the rant, but i feel the advice was becoming misleading at best or dead wrong at worst.

nothing wrong with klipsch speakers though. also worth a listen are the athena audition series (AS) speakers. there are a number of great deals on them at audioadvisor. if you can't swing the svs, the athena p-6000 isn't a bad budget sub either. then there are some very good deals on psb and monitor audio's bronze series from saturday audio. monitor audio is on the warm side but does loud well. psb is more neutral and maybe not for the most extreme volumes. athena is probably closer to the klipsch in sound and does loud very well too. the svs speakers and aperion should be fine too. it's really a matter of personal preference.

but what ever, go out and listen to some different speakers before you do anything. that way you know what sound you like.
 

Dingiswayo

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Matt
Man, can I engrave that in stone and hang in my HT? Thanks MaxL. I'm currently shirking work so I can't follow your links just yet but I'll fully scope out all of you advice later. And I'm pretty dead set on the svs sub. Eveyone just falls all over themselves with how wondeful they are.

Thanks again.
 

MaxL

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Max Levine
if you don't have a chisel, a flathead screwdriver works pretty well. :P
 
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Andrew Smith
Max - great response. Let me say that I was not trying to mislead anyone and have never listened discerningly to the Klipsch sub. I must say that I really do love the sound of Klipsch speakers. Personally I prefer the refernence line (but, heck, I've got a wife and a mortgage)

I was only trying to suggest a great line of speakers to someone looking with a budget. Sorry if I came accross prideful.

Matt, I think the bottom line is that you have to hear the speakers for yourself in order to make an informed decision.

Max, correct me if I'm wrong, but was any of the information that I shared implicitly wrong? was I misinformed? I guess I could have included more detail in my posts about THD etc - but I figured that that was a given with a Klipsch speaker - maybe not. PS


Thanks

ps Matt
"Eveyone just falls all over themselves with how wondeful they are."

Was I? I was only trying to help.
 

MaxL

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Max Levine
the response was based partially on your comments and partially on the OP's responses... he was listening to you. without checking every statement you made, i'm not going to say you were definitely incorrect in any statements of fact. but listing watts for speakers is a signal that something fishy is going on. manufacturers put all kinds of stats on their speakers, they all need to be understood in context and the recommended watts is a particularly wishy-washy stat. every speaker works with a range of signal stregths or a range of current. everyspeaker has a point where too much current will start to melt things, shy of that, there is a point where THD reaches unacceptable levels. at the other end, there's a minimum amount of current necessary to get a decent level of sound out of a speaker. music or HT signals are highly variable and not, generally, what's used to test speakers. so again, there's no easy and obvious way to interpret the numbers as to how they will translate to the actual sounds you reproduce at home. a good speaker might have a recommended top end of 100 watts meaning it can handle 100 continuous watts per channel. another speaker with the same rating might only take 100 watt peaks, and then with significant distortion.

honestly, with decent gear, 90+% of what you'll find recommended around here, the specs aren't too deceiving and the speakers and receivers will play together nicely. it's when you get into HTIB systems and suspiciously good deals on well spec'd gear from a company or dealer no one's heard of that you run into trouble, and need to double check the actual numbers, or companies like bose that don't give you specs.

i don't want to get into rehashing the tower vs bookshelf for HT debate either, but i think at this budget, your $$ will do more for your overall sound in a better sub than in bigger front speakers. bigger and more woofer cones can have some advantages for certain sound qualities, under certain conditions, but generally you have to pay quite a bit before they outweigh the benefits of a better sub.

i do think klipsch make good speakers, and are worth a listen. they do play louder with less power than most speakers out there (more efficient). there are speakers out there that can't do loud. but for the most part, they are very cheap or small or part of some HTIB system. so another issue is how important is loud? it depends on the listener's taste really.

i don't think you (allstar) were trying to be misleading or deceiving in any way, but the responses you were getting implied some misconceptions were being understood in translation, and you weren't correcting them.

i do think we agree that anyone should listen to speakers before buying if possible. and buy what sounds good to you.

i think the vast majority of us here are trying our best to give good advice. i don't think allstar was doing anything else. but sometimes we get it wrong. i certainly have. sorry if i came off a little harsh.

this is a place for learning. i have learned something new about studio monitors thanks to this thread. i'm rambling now...

anyway, i think i'm getting bored/ frustrated repeating the same suggestions... HT confessional...

so finally, go check out aperion university and psb's audio topics. read up on how speakers work and the basics of electronics and sound. it will help you distinguish what's gimmick and what's important. and it will help you recommend gear for the right reasons.
 
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Andrew Smith
Max,

Much appreciated. And I must say - when it comes to home theater - which is (obviously - haha) not my forte - I can learn a lot from you
 

Dingiswayo

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Matt
I'm not really listening to anyone anymore. I'm just giving you all a thumbs up :emoji_thumbsup: for responding to me. In fact I'm not even building a HT, I'm just a forum addict. Just kidding!! No I just know that I can't really make use of anyone's advice until the weekend, so I'm storing it all up before hitting the audio store.

But I did know about total harmonic distortion and some other stuff, though I didn't know that it takes so much wattage to increase the db. That was glory. And I'm set on the svs sub anyway so I was going to scope out the Klipsch speaker land. People do seem to enjoy them, though I didn't realize that they have their own sound (though it seems like most manufacturers probably do). And although I've decided that near-field monitors most likely aren't a problem (via responses to this thread - thanks) I've realized that I don't really care if my speakers lie to me. I want to hear fantastic sound, not necessarily true sound (I mean I don't want my girlfriend to start pouring her heart out about everything she's ever done just in the name of truth, know what I mean?).

And don't worry Allstar, you weren't about to ruin my HT forever and ever. I take all advice with a grain of salt. It was taking my roommate's advice in such a way that led me to post this in the first place. Still, though, thanks to everybody. I'm learning a lot in this discussion. And it looks like I'm not the only one.

I can't wait until I'm further in my career and I have zillions of dollars to blow. Then I'll really put all this to work!
 

Dingiswayo

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Matt
Again, I can't hit this up til later but that aperion university link looks awesome. Thanks Max.
 

Philip Hamm

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Don't throw out your original idea so fast. See if you can make it to a pro music store like Guitar Center also. Studio monitors can be excellent home stereo / theater speakers, and vice versa. If you don't mind the looks (rarely do studio monitors have grilles, and aesthetics aren't as important to sound professionals as they are to living room wives).
 

Dingiswayo

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Okay, just for you Phillip I went to my local Pro Audio store (okay not just for you). Unfortunately the guy was a total prick who was completely unhelpful. He wanted to complain and moan about how crappy the whole world of studio monitors, said he didn't have much hooked up and didn't want to let us try out what he did have hooked up (despite my saying that I had $1000 to spend on some monitors). Despite his relentlessly horrible customer service we did listen to the Dynaudio BM 6A which sounded fantastic. We also heard some Genelec monitor which sounded terrible.

There's a lesson here and it says "Do audition your speakers", just as everyone has been saying - I couldn't believe that the Genelecs sounded bad despite their price. So later I'm going to try to hit up Guitar Center.

I was bummed too. I really wanted to hear the KRK Rokit series. They are affordable and get great reviews. He also said that the market for passive monitors is pretty much finished and that a normal receiver can't power passive monitors. I think this guy is full of crap, however. At 110 watts per channel (not to go back to this old story Max), I can't see how it wouldn't power passive monitors with a max rating of 100 watts.
 
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I am not 100% positive, but I would think that this guy is full of crap also and that a relatively good reciever would power a set of studio monitors with ease.

Max, your thoughts?
 

MaxL

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Max Levine
yes, i think we're all on the same page here.

perhaps the store's manager should read this thread too. it's an unfortunate reality that we sometimes have to endure uninformed, bullyish salespeople so we can hear a piece of gear. luckily, we can walk out the door and buy it somewhere else.
 
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Hey D,

What did you ever decide? I'm curious how your speaker searching is going / went.

let us know.

T
 

Dingiswayo

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Sorry, I should have updated this long ago. So I listened to some m-audio passive monitors and they sounded terrible. I also heard the new Behringer monitors and I thought they sounded fine. The guy at that first shop I went to thought they were evil as does my roommate. I finally heard the Tannoys and they sounded very crisp but I got addicted to the idea of a 5.1 setup and I couldn't afford to do that with the Tannoy monitors and its center speaker, although I'm sure they're wonderful together (I didn't get to hear the center speaker). So now my setup is this:

Infinity Beta 40 floorstanding speakers
" ES250 Bipole surrounds
" C360 center channel
Monitor Audio FB210 that I bought from James Elvick here.

I decided on the Infinity Beta series only because I listened to the C360 from someone selling it on craigslist. The bass was crisp and solid, the highs weren't lispy and the sound was just basically really clear. So from that speaker I bought the rest refurbished on ebay. It took a while because I wanted to actually save money over buying them new online (ebay stuff is hardly any kind of deal anymore) which I did with some diligent effort. I only decided on the 40's as opposed to the 50's because I live in a room in a shared house so I thought the bass would be more tolerable. I bought the sub and set the crossover at 90Hz so if I turn the sub off then the late night bass isn't too bad. The refurbs are great so far. They come with the same warranty as new and only one of them has a slight scuff.

I can still hear the difference between my setup and my roommate's Mackie 820's. His sound better in a way that I can't really quantify. But his two monitors cost $200+ more than my whole 5.1 setup (I spent $1025 on speakers) and I don't hear enough difference to justify that.

Actually before I bought the ES250's I bought a Beta 20 bookshelf to use as a surround. Just for the hell of it I hooked up the Beta 20 in place of an ES250 and I was surprised. I think it actually sounded more solid and clear but I could tell very easily where the sound was coming from whereas the Bipole action of the ES250 masks the source of its sound. So I have yet to decide what I'm going to stick with. The nice thing about the ES250 is that you can hook it up to act as two separate speakers so it can be both of your rear surrounds. So I might do that.

And the sub! This is my first setup so I was surprised, just in general but specifically with regards to bass, as to how much I was missing.

Thanks to everyone who posted on this thread. I'd be glad to entertain any more questions about my setup.

Matt
 
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Well,

I'd be happy with your setup. I've heard the Mackie HR824's and they sound great. So, if your setup sounds close to the quality of the Mackie's - you've got nothing to complain about.

Thanks for the follow up man.

T
 

Dingiswayo

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Just to clarify for anyone considering the Infinity series or Mackies, the Mackie 824's (forgot the '4' in the last post) does have a much clearer high end (I think the bass is actually comparable). My roommate's sort of benchmark song that he plays to test systems is Bad Religion's Sorrow and you can very much hear the difference in the high end in that song. His monitors sound like the guy is in the room with you (he masters albums and chose this song because he says that it's mastered so well), but mine sound very clear to me for non-audiophile appreciation of music and movies. He thought they were great too, for the price. And that's really what this is all about if you're not wealthy, then you want to find a good system for the price. And for that I am very happy and have nothing to complain about. I just didn't want to insult Mackie by implying that I can do better for cheaper. They are better but I'm more than happy with my Betas.
 

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