Paradigm Studio 100 owners

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Todd_RIC, Mar 19, 2003.

  1. Todd_RIC

    Todd_RIC Stunt Coordinator

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    Has anyone here used, or know if you could use a Paradigm Studio 100 as a center channel (lying on it's side)? I'm defintiely going to go with Studio 100s for the fronts and thought I might gain some performance by using the same speaker for the center instead of using the Studio CC. I just don't know if I can put a Studio 100 on its side. Please advise.
     
  2. Scott L

    Scott L Producer

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    Yikes, putting one of those bad boys on its side just doesn't sound right. If you honestly want to use a full tower as a center make sure you have the room for it so it will sit upright, which I can only see positioned behind a microperf screen if you have a projector.
     
  3. Mat_M

    Mat_M Stunt Coordinator

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    I would also recommend against laying it on its side. Not because of possible damage or anything, but rather because the tweeter, midrange, and woofers will be in a line from left to right (or vice versa), and not in a symmetric way.
     
  4. Chas_T

    Chas_T Supporting Actor

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    I'd agree. Upright would be the best way to accomplish your goal. Can you buy an individual Studio 100?? Just curious.
     
  5. BrianWoerndle

    BrianWoerndle Supporting Actor

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    Yes, the Studio speakers are sold individually.

    Another reason to not lay it on its side: weight. They are very heavy, so you would have to have a very good stand for it.
     
  6. Martin Rendall

    Martin Rendall Screenwriter

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    One upright 100 as a center would be wonderful.

    Martin.
     
  7. Todd_RIC

    Todd_RIC Stunt Coordinator

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    I just got a response back from Paradigm. You CAN lay a Studio 100 on its side to use as a center channel. I'll build the stand, that's not a problem. I was also informed that you can only buy the laminate version of the Studio 100 individually. Veneers must be bought in pairs. Just thought I'd share the info.
     
  8. Scott L

    Scott L Producer

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    Of course you can, as in it's possible, but would you want to? You might want to hear how it sounds both ways first...
     
  9. Todd_RIC

    Todd_RIC Stunt Coordinator

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    I plan on doing that very thing... when the time to buy gets closer. The dealer said that he recently sold that configuration to a customer and the customer loved it. I'll see and share my opinions... I just wanted to see if anyone at this forum had done it or if anyone knew of some limitation of the speaker that would prohibit it from being on its side. I've got another question submitted to Paradigm as to whether there would be any "acoustic loss or gain" of using this configuration.
     
  10. Todd_RIC

    Todd_RIC Stunt Coordinator

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    I don't know why this posted again...
     
  11. Todd_RIC

    Todd_RIC Stunt Coordinator

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    I just wanted to let you guys know that I got a response back from Paradigm stating that I should get increased performance using a Studio 100 instead of a Studio CC as a center channel... even if it is on its side.
     
  12. Mat_M

    Mat_M Stunt Coordinator

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    I'm still skeptical with this issue. Did you ask them to define the "increased performance" you'd be getting? Selling another 100 would be more profit for them, but would it really be worth it to you? I don't know.
     
  13. Todd_RIC

    Todd_RIC Stunt Coordinator

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    No, I didn't... that would be hard to define. I'm going to listen to this set-up and then make my final decision. Honestly, though, I don't see why it wouldn't sound a lot better. All of the drivers in the Studio 100 will be aimed directly at the listening area... should be awesome. I'll give it a listen and report back.
     
  14. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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    Todd,

    There are two words needed to describe why this isn't such a good idea: "comb filtering". But as long as you always sit directly in line with the tweeter then maybe it won't be too bad. Otherwise, I can't think of a worse thing to do with a speaker.
     
  15. Todd_RIC

    Todd_RIC Stunt Coordinator

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    Alright Brian,

    Educate me... unlike many here, I profess to be an expert at nothing. I just like watching movies and am trying to figure out what to put in my theater room that will be built in a few months.

    What is comb filtering and why is it so terrible to lay a speaker on its side?
     
  16. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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    Comb filtering is what happens when the same sound arrives from two different sources at two different instances in time. This is what you experience when you lay most MTM style cabinets on their sides. You have both woofers reproducing the same frequencies so that when you sit off-center, the sound from the woofer closest to you arrives sooner than the one further away. This usually creates a very chesty sound from vocals. At least that's been my experience.

    Also, due to the way sound propagates, a speaker has a wider horizontal dispersion than vertical dispersion. By laying the speaker on it's side you create a situation where you have greater vertical dispersion and limited horizontal dispersion. This creates issues with reflections off of the ceiling and floor. The limited horizontal dispersion also affects any off axis listening.

    So can the Studio 100 be lied on it's side for a center channel? Sure. Will you be compromising the performance of your system? Most definitely. To what degree it's an issue is something only you can decide through listening.
     
  17. Todd_RIC

    Todd_RIC Stunt Coordinator

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    Hmmm, I'm ignorant about this, so don't think this is a challenge, but some things don't make sense to me. In most standard center channel speakers, the drivers are positioned horizontally... usually with a woofer on each side of the speaker and a tweeter in the center. Based on that, plus the way you described comb filtering, wouldn't ALL center channel speakers suffer from this? If sitting off-center from any normal center channel, there are two woofers sitting on one horizontal plane delivering the same sound... so what's the difference? Another thing bugs me about this issue... at ambient temperature, the speed of sound in air is c = 345 m/s. This means that it takes one second for sound to go over a 345-meter distance. So with literally no more than a couple of inches seperating the woofers in a Studio 100, how much possible delay could there be??? In fact, wouldn't the Studio 100 be better than the Studio CC in this regard since there is less distance between the woofers?

    For the life of me, I can't find any references for sound waves being produced by speakers as being non-uniform in regards to vertical and horizontal dispersion. Again, this isn't a challenge, I'm just trying to learn. Do you think you could point me to a reference regarding this issue? It just doesn't sit right in my noodle that a perfectly circular cone would produce a non-uniform wave shape. Please advise... and thanks for the discussion.
     
  18. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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    It's simple really, most center channels are a compromise. Laying an MTM on it's side is the worst thing you can do in most cases. And just how bad it is depends on the individual design. If you can keep the two woofers as close together as possible it helps a lot in eliminating a lot of this except at extreme distances from the center listening position. At what frequency the comb filtering occurs is dependant on the center to center spacing of the woofers.

    There are 3 way centers that have dual woofers with a horizontally aligned mid and tweeter in the middle. This is the proper way to design a center channel for best performance. For more info. check out this link.

    http://www.speakerpage.com/center.htm

    EDIT: This link has more in-depth info:

    http://www.speakerpage.com/k05c25.htm
     
  19. Todd_RIC

    Todd_RIC Stunt Coordinator

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    Hi again Brian,

    Thanks for the reply... it really got me thinking and researching. Again, this is no jab at you, because the only thing I know for certain is that I don't know much.

    The site you referenced and what I understand of what you have told me sum up to this... that almost every major speaker manufacturer on the planet offers a severely flawed center channel speaker design. I looked up a lot of them, and the following is a list of manufacturers that have multiple woofers aligned horizontally and do NOT have a midrange driver located directly below the tweeter (the site and our discussion would indicate this constitutes "the worst possible way to design a center channel speaker"): Martin Logan, M&K, Definitive Technology, Paradigm, Klipsch, Energy, ADS, Polk, and JBL... to name a few... and that's not mentioning THX as well as all the mags that review and endorse these products. With all due respect, I find it hard to believe that these manufacturers don't know what they're doing and that these center channel designs are a "sacrifice". These are some of the most respected names in the industry... what am I missing???
     
  20. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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    Todd,

    This is what you're missing. Are you willing to take a matching third speaker and set it atop your TV in it's normal, vertical orientation? Neither is 99% of the rest of the world. An MTM on it's side is more "aesthetically" acceptable. Also, as I said before, a lot of these issues can be minimized to some level through close driver spacing and proper crossover design. But these designs are still compromises to some extent. To what degree will be based on each individual design.

    What it all comes down to is this: go listen to some HT setups in stores with MTM designed center channels. Then move more than 15-20 degrees off center and listen again. Listen for the tonal differences through the vocal range. Listen for an apparent decrease in vocal intelligibility. Do the exact same thing with the Studio 100 laying on it's side. If you don't hear it then ignore everything I've said. After all, what you do or don't hear is all that should really matter to you in the long run.

    And the magazines and their "endorsements" are another issue that I'd just as soon not get into.[​IMG]
     

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