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Paradigm Setup

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Jason Lovely, Feb 22, 2002.

  1. Jason Lovely

    Jason Lovely Stunt Coordinator

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    This is what I'm looking at:

    Denon AVR-3802: Receiver

    Monitor 7: Fronts

    CC-370: Center

    ADP-370: Surrounds

    PS-1000 or PS-1200: Sub

    Have any of you had any experience with this type of setup? I would like it to work equally well for both movies and music. Please advise. Thanks.
     
  2. Jason Lovely

    Jason Lovely Stunt Coordinator

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    Also, what does bi-wiring mean? Many reviews I've read on these say they sound better bi-wired.
     
  3. EricHaas

    EricHaas Supporting Actor

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    That's a great setup. I would go with a different brand of sub though. For the same money, you can get a Hsu VTF-2 or Adire Rava.

    Bi-wiring is where you use 2 cables to connect the speaker in question to your receiver. One cable connects to one pair of binding posts, and a second cable to the other pair. One is supposed to handle the high frequency and the other the low. Benefits have been debated. Some say they can tell a difference. Others not.
     
  4. JohnnyHK

    JohnnyHK Stunt Coordinator

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    Very nice setup, but I agree that you can probably do better on the sub. Also, you may want to consider ADP-170s instead of ADP-370s. Paradigm just came out with v3 of the 170s and for the limited demands that are made of surrounds in general, I think it's a great place to save some decent money without really sacrificing. It all depends on your priorities and preferences.

    John
     
  5. Jason Lovely

    Jason Lovely Stunt Coordinator

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    If you need two cables for each speaker to bi-wire, does this mean you would need more than one receiver or more speaker channels? Thanks for the tip about the sub; I will definitely consider it. I've already looked at a bunch of review about the Hsu VTF-2, and everyone says it's awesome. As far as the surrounds, I guess I'll see what's up when I'm about to buy them.
     
  6. EricHaas

    EricHaas Supporting Actor

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    You just need two cables per speaker, and they both attach to the same binding post on your receiver. You can use more than one amp per speaker, called "bi-amping," but that is a separate issue.
    Yeah, I recommend looking into the adp-170's, especially if it means you can add a few hundred to your subwoofer budget. There is the SVS line, highly taughted, and the brand new Hsu VTF-3 which looks particularly interesting. Look for it at www.audiogon.com.
     
  7. jeff lam

    jeff lam Screenwriter

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    Forget the PS series subs. I beleive they are a bandpass design(very loud, but very boomy). I would suggest something a bit cleaner in the output like an SVS or Adire Audio Rava. The HSU VTF2 is also excellent from the reviews. Other than that, the set-up looks great!
     
  8. Jason Lovely

    Jason Lovely Stunt Coordinator

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    In another thread, I asked whether Paradigm offered a bipole surround speaker, and I was told they don't. Although I think I have a place to put the ADP-370s, I'm not sure if it would work well, because one of them would probably have to be attached to the strip of wall above the bar (my living area is open to the kitchen and dining room). The other one would be on the side wall behind a door leading out to the patio. Does it matter how high above the listening area the surrounds are? These would have to be right under the point where the ceiling starts to slant upward (vaulted ceiling). They would also be two to three feet off the back wall. Also, if I put them there, I'll probably have to move my couch back a little, because they're farther back than the Dolby site recommends (they'd be two to three feet behind the couch). Everything I've seen shows them directly to the left and right of the couch. Does this sound like it would work? If not, and if I have to put the surrounds on the back wall, the mini-monitors were suggested. Would these be better with this setup, or should I go for a Monitor 5? I'm just comparing the power input of the ADP-370s to the Monitor 5.
     
  9. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    I'd take a look at this for some ideas on surround placement options that will work with your room:
    http://www.dolby.com/ht/Guide.HomeTh...0110.html#s3.3
    I'd drop the ADP370 for MiniMonitors. I don't think it would be worth it to put Mon5s back there.
    I also stronly aggree that you should stay away from the PS series subs. Bandpass boombox design.
    I'd take the money I saved on going with MiniMon over the ADP370 and put that towards a better sub. Are you in the US or Canada? If you are in Canada the Paradigm PW2200 would be my first choice (really only choice as our dollar is so weak). If you are in the US, I'd go HSU VTF2 as the least expensive option (I think it's $400-$450USD). Adire Dharman is varily large step up over the VTF2($600USD, and would outperform a PW2200). SVS 20-39CS+ with an S1000 ($1000USD and would handily outperform the Dharman). The added benefit of the SVS would be that later you would only need to buy a second 20-39CS+ as the S1000 can't power two of them if you wanted more bass (the S1000 is a chunk of the cost of the SVS setup).
    Anyways, my 2cents.
     
  10. Marty M

    Marty M Cinematographer

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    I have Monitor 7's with the Mini-Monitors for surround and PW-2200 sub, as Dustin has suggested. Mini-Monitors work well for me as surrounds. I highly recommend the PW-2200 sub over the others you are considering. It is definitely a better quality sub. But since matching a sub with the rest of the system is not a factor, you should probably consider other brands as well, as suggested.
     
  11. Thad_C

    Thad_C Agent

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    I just tested the set-up with the Monitor 7's, CC-370 and Mini Monitors-as-surrounds, and a PDR-12 surround, at a local dealer. I felt the mini-monitors were fine for surrounds, but the sub was lacking. I plan on getting the same set-up with a PW-2200 sub.

    Any thoughts on Mini-Monitors vs. ADP-120's for surrounds? My sense is that the surround channels really don't require much for my ears.
     
  12. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    The 170 is a dipole that uses 2 3/4" tweeters and two 5.5" midwoofers. It is a part of the Performance line. The MiniMonitor is a monopole that uses a single 1" driver and a 6.5" midwoofer. It is part of the Monitor series. The MiniMonitor is a superior speaker to the ADP170.

    Dipole surrounds had there purpose with Dolby Prologic. But with Dolby Digital/DTS with their descrete rear channels, I prefer direct radiators (monopoles) over dipoles for surrounds.

    Thad,

    reread my last post. If you are in Canada, then the PW2200 is definately your best choice (you shouldn't have to pay more than $825CDN for it before taxes, I've read posts from people who claim they payed $630CDN). $825CDN puts you in the $500 price range US (you won't get a PW2200 for $500 in the US). You could pick up an Adire Dharman for $599 US that will outperform a PW2200. An HSU VTF2 will come close to a PW2200 but not quite. Finally a SVS 20-39CS+ with a S1000 will easily beat every sub I've listed so far.
     
  13. Jason Lovely

    Jason Lovely Stunt Coordinator

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    If the Mini-Monitors are monopoles, what are bipoles? Also, since they're monopoles, it would make sense to place them on the back wall, right?
     
  14. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    Check out the link in post 9. It shows a bunch of different options for placing monopole surrounds.
    Check this link out for definitions of monopole, dipole and bipole:
    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...akerEnclosures
    In short, a dipole has the mirrored drivers wired out of phase (when one goes out the other goes in), while the bipole has the mirrored drivers wired in phase (both go in and out at the same time).
     
  15. Jason Lovely

    Jason Lovely Stunt Coordinator

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    I've heard you can't hear things like footsteps with monopole surrounds.
     
  16. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    Where did you hear that? Most definately incorrect. Your mains and center speakers are monopole speakers (unless you have something like DefTech or Magnapan), and you most certainly can hear foot steps from them.

    Dipoles create a diffuse sound feild that some what masks directional ques when you are to the side of them. This made them great for creating ambient sounds with dolby prologic tracks (mono surround, both rear speakers played the same thing). Dolby Digital and DTS have descrete rear channels and can give great directional ques. Monopoles are much better for giving directional ques than dipoles.
     
  17. Jason Lovely

    Jason Lovely Stunt Coordinator

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    Well, I guess I'll be going with the Mini-Monitors then. Some guy on Audio Review said that about the monopoles. Once again, though, something I have a question about is the input power. Mini-Monitors have a maximum input power of 80 watts. Since the Denon 3802 I'll be using is rated a 110 w/channel, does this mean it would be possible to blow the Mini-Monitors?
     
  18. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    Speakers have a sensitivity rating. The MiniMon's is 89dB/W/m. What this means is that with 1W of power applied measured 1m from the speaker the sound should be 89dB. To clearly perceive an increase in loudness requires a 3dB increase. This one is rough and argued over, but to perceive a doubling in loudness requires a 10dB increase. In order to increase output by 3dB you have to double the input power. So it would go like this:

    watts applied - 1m measured dB level

    1 - 89

    2 - 92

    4 - 95

    8 - 98

    16 - 101

    32 - 104

    64 - 107

    128 - 111

    As you can see, as power numbers get up over 64 watts, you need to make huge jumps in power to see any real increases.

    The second part to this is, it is much more dangerous to have an underpowered amp than an overpowered one. If the amp doesn't have enough power it will clip the signal, so instead of a nice round wave pattern, you will get these flat spots at the tops. These flat spots mean the cone is held still. Holding the cone still is very bad for the voice coil and can destroy it very quickly (no power and at rest is the only save way to hold a cone still).

    When you apply too much power, the driver will just start to pass it's abilities. Before it will pass it's mechanical abilities it will start to sound very bad. So as long as you don't turn it up enough to sound very bad, you will never hit the mechanical limits of the driver where too much power can destroy it.

    Too much power, plenty of warning you are getting too loud (well unless your budy cranks the volume and then starts to play some death metal). Too little power, no warning.
     
  19. Jason Lovely

    Jason Lovely Stunt Coordinator

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    So is it safe to say that the Denon 3802 has enough power to push the speakers I've proposed without any substantial risk?
     
  20. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    Well sort off. Depends on how loud you want to listen and how far away you are from them. I just found out the actual number, you have to take off 6dB for every doubling of distance. So at 2m take 6dB off of each of those numbers. At 4m you take off 12dB.

    Both of these are a little over simplified as they don't take into account room interation, but they should be pretty close.

    However, the real bottom line is, I wouldn't be concerned useing a 1602, 2802, 3802 or 4802 with the MiniMons.
     

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