Paradigm Reference 80's vs. 100's and the survo 15

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Bobby_N, Mar 14, 2002.

  1. Bobby_N

    Bobby_N Agent

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    Ok, heres the deal, I have a Paradigm Reference Survo 15 sub, (is that a good sub? - it thunders, but I have some technical questions), anyways, and I have a set of Paradigm Studio Reference 40's for my back channels, and some "other" speakers for the mains, and a Paradigm Reference CC-350 center channel.

    1st question:

    I have the sub controller with the sub, ok, now, where should the volume on the BACK of the sub next to the heat sink be set? At full, at half, or somewhere in between, I mean, I have the X controller that came with it too, and I have never really discovered where it should really be set. Also, I don't frequently run my stuff REAL hard, but how can you tell when you are approaching the subs safty point, before the internal amp starts to clip, or the cone bottoms out?

    2nd question:

    For those who have these 2 different types of speakers, is there any serious difference in between the cc-350 and the cc-370? And what are the differences between the ref 80's and the ref 100's - in other words, theres a $500 dollar difference, but which one would be worth it?

    3rd question:

    I have a Yamaha RX-V1 preamp/processor and a Sherbourn 5 channel power amp. If I get either the 80's or the 100's they will be like the 40's, and you will be able to bi-wire them right? I've done this with my 40's, and it makes a difference, however, would this be constituted as a 4ohm load instead of an 8ohm load, I mean, you are using 2 seperate amp channels, but with both going into the same speaker, does that make any ohm difference? My point for this is, I want to use 2 channels for the left, 2 channels for the right, and the last channel for the front center. Would there be a difference, in the sound, do you think, since all channesl are going to be used up, then the back channels are going to have to run off the Yamahas internal amps for those particular channels? And would getting another Sherbourn amp, and bi-wiring the back channels also, make any diffefence in the total Dolby Digital experience? And does the type of wiring used make a serious difference? I've seen wire all the way up to $12.00 a FOOT! Using that in a HT setup would be EXPENSIVE!

    I know this is a lot of questions, but I am some what of a new comer, and there is a lot I still need to learn, I got screwed over BIG time by a nameless company in the Memphis area, and so now, I am in the process of dealing with that, and picking up the pieces, and I figured that Paradigm would be a good way to go. Is Paradigm Reference WORTH the money?

    Thank You.
     
  2. henning hoffmann

    henning hoffmann Stunt Coordinator

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    I have a Servo-15 sub, Studio 80 v1 mains, and LCR-450 center (which is supposed to sound exactly like the dedicated center channel speaker - they almost look the same, have the same drivers, etc).

    The Servo-15 is a very good sub with a good reputation.

    1) I'd have to check to make sure, but I think my sub's volume is turned up all the way. You'll have a hard time bottoming out the Servo-15 because it's servo controlled to prevent that kind of thing. It'll just stop getting louder.

    2) I have Studio 80 speakers, and I am a little disappointed with how well they match with the center. This is confirmed by various opinions I've seen on these boards. You probably should get Studio/60s or 100s. Personally, I'd buy three Studio/20s across the front if I had to do it over again.

    3) No, it's still an 8ohm load. I've done this with no problems (although I'm told my amp will handle a 4 ohm load). I don't think bi-amping the surrounds would make a noticable difference unless you have a perfect room. Do you use your system for primarily HT? I'd consider bi-amping your center more important than bi-amping the sides.

    About wiring, you should at least make sure that the cable isn't el-cheapo crap and that it's thick (like 12ga). I don't think we should say any more than that because fights have broken out over the issue.

    Henning
     
  3. Bobby_N

    Bobby_N Agent

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    Hey thanks. So you say, that the Studio 80's would not be a good match for a CC-350 or CC-370 center channel by the same company, in the same product line? Please help me to understand this, as I do not want to make a bad choice... [​IMG]
     
  4. henning hoffmann

    henning hoffmann Stunt Coordinator

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    I would suggest that if you get Studio/XX speakers for mains, that you definitely get the matching Studio/CC for the center. I would also suggest you not get the Studio/80, because it doesn't match as well with the Studio/CC as other Studio/XX speakers.

    The CC-350 and CC-370 are NOT in the same product line as the Studio/XX speakers. The Studio/XX speakers are in the Reference line (for example, Studio/100 and Studio/CC). The CC-370 is in the Monitor line. I don't know what line the CC-350 is in, but it's not the Reference line.

    Henning
     
  5. Bobby_N

    Bobby_N Agent

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    Oh, ok...thanks
     
  6. Thomas F

    Thomas F Stunt Coordinator

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    Another thing to keep in mind about the Studio 80 is the larger midrange, 8" I think. For that reason, some people think that the 80 doesn't match as well with the Studio/CC and other speakers in the Reference line which has a smaller midrange. Look at the specs and you'll see what I mean.
     
  7. itai

    itai Stunt Coordinator

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    isnt bi-amping a bit of an overkill? i'd suggest the normal amping/wiring from your sherburn amp, going into a nice studio reference line, with a good pro/reciver, will do just fine. (and a litle more...)
    yes, the ref. line from para. is "worth it"!
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Bobby_N

    Bobby_N Agent

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    Well, I guess, I mean, you do get a wider stereo seperation with bi-wiring, however, thats kinda crappy though, because, I had my sights set on the 80's, I mean, the 60's look a little small to me. And the 100's...hmmm, I just don't know. So they won't go together huh, I see what you mean, I looked at the specs...crap...
     
  9. Mike Veroukis

    Mike Veroukis Second Unit

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    Hey!

    Could someone please educate me as to why the 80s don't match with the studio/cc? I looked at the specs and couldn't tell why. What do you look for? Crossover points? What would the effect of non-matching center/main speakers be? Just curious so I know how to best match mains with center speakers. Thanks.

    - Mike
     
  10. Tony Meconiates

    Tony Meconiates Stunt Coordinator

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    Mike,

    Its because of the differences in midrange driver. The drivers in the CC match the 20,40,60, and 100... the 80's have a different midrange driver.

    Bobby,

    How big is the room? I have a pair of 40's myself and I am going to be adding a pair of 60's come summertime.
     
  11. Mike Veroukis

    Mike Veroukis Second Unit

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    @Tony:
    Ah, I see. So you want to keep the mid-range drivers the same on the mains and center. That makes sense I guess. Just another excuse to get the 100s I guess. [​IMG]
    - Mike
     
  12. Ken Hoyme

    Ken Hoyme Extra

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    Tony,

    Why the upgrade to the 60's? I am setting up my new HT -- 13'x28' room -- about 3000 sq ft. I was initially thinking about Studio/100's in the front with the Servo-15 as sub, but became convinced that with the sub, and the speakers set to "small" to roll off to the sub, I would not gain much from larger fronts than the 40's.

    As a 40 user thinking about upgrading, I would be interested in your reasons.

    (My plan is 40's for fronts, CC for center, and 20's for surrounds with the Servo-15 for the low end boost).

    Thanks,

    Ken
     
  13. Tony Meconiates

    Tony Meconiates Stunt Coordinator

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    Ken,
    I said I was adding a pair of 60's [​IMG]
    Currently, my setup is a pair of 40's, a CC and a PW2200.
    I was originally going to buy a set of 20's for the rear, but because I can get the 40's for literally 100 dollars more, its not worth it. And since the 60's cost only 250 more than the 40's for me (and the stands cost close to 200 if I get another pair of 40's), I thought I might as well get a pair of 60's and move my existing 40's to the rear.
    I think 60's, 40's and a CC + current sub would round out the setup nicely given my current receiver is a denon 3300. My next immediate however, is the denon 3800 dvd player due to be released in April. After I get the 60's in august, I will be looking for a nice pre/pro + amp combo... I have been looking into the parasound 1205 with the new outlaw 950, but thats a good 6-9 months away.
    I have babbled enough....
     
  14. Bobby_N

    Bobby_N Agent

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    Pfffft....I definatly won't be setting up in a 3000 sq.ft room that's for sure. Maybe my lack of knowledge is hurting me right here, cause frankly, I am not really sure which way to go. According to Paradigms web site, with a set of Studio 80's, the Ref/CC goes with it, and Studio ADP's for backs. However, I don't doubt any of you when you say that it will nto match, however, I fail to see why this is, BEYOND, the fact that the mid on the 80's is bigger. How WOULD this make a difference in sound, I mean, its a mid range...right? Yep, my lack of education is screwing me over right here....doh, and I really want those 80's too, cause I just don't wanna shell out $2000.00 for a set of 100's....

    And does anyone know about the ADP's? Would they make a good back channel setup? Lets say, Back L/R would be the ADP's, and one Studio 20 for the back center...

    I really appreciate your guys help here, and I will ask for more, I don't wanna wind up in the positon that I am recovering from right now, which is, my lack of education cost me a LOT OF MONEY LOST, in a terrible SCREW OVER... DOH!
     
  15. itai

    itai Stunt Coordinator

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    Bobby
    i think "not matching" 80's is a bit of an audiophile level thing. personally, i heard the 60, 80 and 100 side by side, and didnt feel any terible "miss match". (i chose the 60's).
    So, try to listen-audition them, and see what sounds good to you, cause, you know, it can vary alot between different folks. (the 80's are good if you like them, period!...)[​IMG]
    ADP's will do a great diffusion side/back soundstage, and for backs, get another pair of adp's (for complete envelopement), or a pair directs like the 20's, again, personal prefs are at play. (no "damage" with either choice)
    depends on room sizes and shape, the adp's need wall surfaces to bounce into/from, while 20's fire direct at listeners. (i think a pair for back is better than one, even if currently no real 7.1 software out there)
    Also consider whether you're gonna add multichannel music, which will need direct firing rear/side surrounds, so give it a thought.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Massimo N

    Massimo N Stunt Coordinator

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    I would also recommend against the 80s if you are using your speakers primarily for HT. My rational is the same as the other posters. The mid-range driver is different than the rest of the line. That said, if you do decide on the 80s and the Reference/Studio CC, they will sound fine. You will notice the most differences when sound pans across the front 3 speakers, or from the front to the back. Even though the 20/40/60/100s se the same driver as the CC, they will not match 100%. Each speaker has it’s own cross-over circuit and different cabinet (obviously) so they will sound a different. Adding a different driver into the mix, the gap increases even more.

    Choosing your rear speakers is a matter of personal choice. I choose direct radiating speakers for the rear instead of the ADPs. The ADPs will provide more of a diffused effect in the rear channels. I would suggest that you listen to both set-ups (properly set up) and make your decision based on what style you prefer. I wanted to take full advantage of multi-channel music, so I choose direct radiating.

    You can bi-wire or bi-amp the full Reference/Studio line. I have bi-wired all of my speakers. I cannot offer any advise on bi-amping, as I have never attempting this myself.

    The Servo 15 is a great sub. The volume on the sub is very dependent on your room size, position, amp/pre-amp set-up and other speakers. The best way to calibrate your sub is to use an SPL meter and a calibration disk like AVIA or Video Essentials. The Servo-15 has circuts in the sub to prevent the amp from clipping and the driver from bottoming out.

    Don't forget the vaneer option for these speakers. I think they change the look of these speakers dramatically. This is a pricy option (about 20% premium), but I feel it is worth the consideration.

    Just in case it matters, my speakers are:

    Mains:Paradigm Reference 40s (Rosewood Vaneer)

    Rears:Paradigm Reference 40s (Rosewood Vaneer)

    Centre:Paradigm Reference CC

    Sub:SVS20-39PC

    Cheers!

    Mass
     
  17. Ken Hoyme

    Ken Hoyme Extra

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    Whoops -- I fat fingered my earlier post -- that is 3000 cubic feet -- not square feet (13x28x8).
    I just wish I had the space to devote 3000 sq feet to a home theater. [​IMG]
    Bobby -- you might also pop over to AVS forum and do a search on the Studio/80. When I started my speaker search I remember seeing posts there on people who thought the Studio/80 was the least favorite speaker in the line -- I suspect for the same reasons being discussed here. I decided if I was going to go floor-standing, I would go for the 100's -- but concluded that with a good matched and calibrated sub, I would not really be using the extended bass range I would get from the 100's. (Still time to change my mind if there are stong opinions out there!)
    Ken
     
  18. Ken Hoyme

    Ken Hoyme Extra

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    Massimo,

    I notice that you are in Candada, where Paradigm is cheap, yet you chose an SVS sub over the Servo-15. I presume you had to pay the premium to get it from the US at a bad exchange rate??

    I would be interested in your decision process on that one? I had the chance to get the SVS at 15% off with the HTS group buy, and decided to pass for the Servo-15 (still yet to order).

    Thanks,

    Ken
     
  19. Bobby_N

    Bobby_N Agent

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    Welp....DOH....errrrr....I guess i'll eat it, and go for the 100's...aren't they $2000.00 a set? Or is that for the vanieer option on it too? I just want the black ones, I want it to match all my other gear, which...is black. [​IMG] I wish I could find some place that has a "bit" better pricing then Memphis Custom Audio and Video...ouchies, oh well, heh, they have a 1 year trade-up policy...and I'm going to take FULL advantage of that..heehee. [​IMG]
     
  20. Massimo N

    Massimo N Stunt Coordinator

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    Ken,
    When I purchased my SVS, it was a bit easier than it is now. I bought my sub about a year ago, when the Cdn to US exchange was a bit better than it is now. My total cost of the sub was $1416 Cdn (after GST, PST, Brokerage Fees). What made my decision even harder was that I ordered my sub when SVS still had their LONG waiting list. I had to wait 2.5 months before my sub shipped. Instant gratification with Servo-15 or wait on SVS … I ultimately decided to wait.
    The 2 big deciding factor for me was price and size. At the time, my dealer wouldn’t give me any substantial discount on the Servo-15, plus I wanted the veneer to match my 40s. If I recall, the price of the Servo-15 was $1600 (before taxes) and an additional $400 for the veneer. So for the same (marginally better) performance (20hz –80hz) out of the SVS, and at a $600-$900 savings the SVS won on price.
    The second factor was the physical size of the 2 subs. The SVS has a footprint of 16” where the Servo-15 has a footprint of 18”x23”. I felt that I had more placement options with the SVS.
    The minor factor was I preferred the look of the SVS.
    My feelings about the sub haven’t changed since my initial review … the SVS20-39 is an amazing subwoofer and no buyers remorse at all [​IMG]
    Now with the exchange rate as bad as it is today, the Servo-15 is price comparable and probably cheaper than the SVS. I’m not sure what I’d do today. The CS+ or the new PCI subs look like they'll beat a Servo, so the decision is even harder for us Canadians.
    The SVS blends very well with my Paradigm Reference 40s and is very fast.
    Bobby, I'm sure you'll be very happy with the 100s. The standard finish is black, so no extra charges there. UPGRADE !!! Spoken like a true HT addict ... thinking of upgrading even before making the purchase [​IMG]
    Cheers!
    Mass
     

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