Paradigm Pw-2200 vs SVS 20-39 pci???

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Vaughan, Jan 11, 2003.

  1. Vaughan

    Vaughan Agent

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    Hi Guys

    I really need advice as to the better performer for the money,especially the output, and the subwoofers in question are the Paradigm pw-2200 and SVS 20-39 pci.Both I know are great subwoofers, but I need to know which have more output/extension?

    I am still deciding whether buying the 20-39pci and need this question put to rest, as both are great performers, just that I heard a special going on that puts the pw2200 at the same price point as the 20-39pci.Any advice would be appreciated, as would conclusive proof to show results.Owners of both subwoofers would also be greatly appreciated as to give indications to show if either one is up to the task. Your thoughts, as always would be of help.

    Regards

    Vaughan
     
  2. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    The SVS 20-39PCi has a larger enclosure, is tuned lower (SVS is 20hz and the PW2200 is somewhere between 27hz and 30hz depending on how much of an appearant volume gain Paradigm gets from the stuffing) and has more power. I also wouldn't be surprised if the SVS driver could displace more air than the PW2200's driver.

    Bottom line, the SVS 20-39PCi will go lower and louder.

    In the States the only reason I can see to take a PW2200 over an SVS is appearance reasons (in which case I'd be serioudly looking at the Adire Dharman or Hsu VTF3). In Canada it's a different story though, as the PW2200 is several hundred cheaper than an SVS.
     
  3. Vaughan

    Vaughan Agent

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    Great to hear, and what a about..say a PW-2500(hope i spelt it right),just because i live in South Africa and the exchange rate is, well almost impossible and the sub ahead of the PW-2200 is about R1500(or about $190).Would you be able to compare output wise?
     
  4. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    There is no PW2500. There is a Servo15 though. It is significantly more expensive and is behind the PW2200 in above 30hz output, but ahead if it in below 30hz output. The Servo15 has a slightly larger enclosure that is sealed, not ported and uses a 15" servo controlled driver.
     
  5. Vaughan

    Vaughan Agent

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    I'm glad that the 20-39 will whip the paradigms rear ports, and as a matter of interest, how much does it cost, and how long would it take to contruct a sub that would produce 125db at the listening position in the 16hz and up range?I know of only two commercial sub that(speculation) can achieve this, such as KMRS and wilson xs.Any other suggestions?
     
  6. Antonio_B

    Antonio_B Stunt Coordinator

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    hey all,i would suggest the PW-2200.By the way the PW-2200 goes even lower than the 20-39PCI,it goes down to 18 HZ.
    Later.
     
  7. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    Antonio, that is a -3dB point and the level of the sweep is unknown. For all we know the -3dB point of 18hz can only be achieved with a 80dB sweep. In general you can pretty much ignore whatever -3dB point a manufacture gives, as it isn't given with enough information to make it mean anything. With Tom Nousaine's max output testing the PW2200 is down over 15dB at 20hz from what it can average between 25 and 63 hz.

    20hz is the tuning of the port in the 20-39. The tuning of the port in the PW2200 is somewhere between 27 and 30hz for the PW2200 by my calculations. Tuning and extension are two different things. You can measure output from both the SVS 20-39 and the PW2200 at well below 20hz. Tuning and extension are related though. A lower tuned sub will be able to play louder lower.

    A 20-39 will be able to play a lot louder than the PW2200 in the last octave (16-32hz) while in the octaves above the difference will be much smaller.
     
  8. DavidY

    DavidY Supporting Actor

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    Dustin,

     
  9. Vaughan

    Vaughan Agent

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    I know that this is off the main topic, but i am just wondering about being safe or immune from bottoming, as I have heard people that have bottomed their SVS, even ultras on the Phantam Menace opening,which kind of scares the HELL out of me.I think there is sub14-16hz content in this sequence which is quiet a strict requirement to try and force at reference level.My theory or speculations regarding being immune to that test, which I think is probably the most common bass bottoming sequence other than Toy Story 2 opening, would be to buy SVS models in each of their respective frequecies bands, so that fs from 25 to 12 can be achieved at full reference..ie 2 25-31pci+,use port blocker to filter below tuning port,2 20-39pci+,use port blocker, etc..and then at least 3 ultra's for frequencies below 20 till 12hz,as the lower the fs,the harder to maintain a particuliar output.I am sure THEN!! i will be immune for reference, even though this is impractible, but is this the only way to be safe?
     
  10. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    That must have been a while ago >2.5 years. It also isn't listed in the archive on Paradigm's website. I remember talk of a Servo25, but with Paradigm who knows if it will every come out.

    Although I consider both the Servo15 and PW2200 small subs. The Servo15 has a 3.4ft^3 enclosure, my current sub is a little over 9ft^3 (has a smaller foot print than a Servo15 though, mind you it's 6' tall :p)).
     
  11. Jason Brent

    Jason Brent Second Unit

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    I currently have a PW-2200, and am fairly pleased with it. I have some room issues that are my biggest complaint. That said, I think it performs fairly well. I have pushed it to it's limits though, and while it does bottom out a little on a few instances, it handles it very well. In fact my wife can't tell when it is, but she isn't as critical of a listener as I am.

    I wish it did have a little lower extension though. Another half an octave would be more than enough for me. Some of this may be to room problems, though. My main room is 14' wide, 27' long, and 9' ceilings. Plaster walls and hardwood floors. It's a pretty "lively" room. Also, it has a large opening into the formal dining room which is another 12' x 12'. There is a lot of air to move.

    I'm a little embarrassed to admit this, but I didn't know of SVS when I bought this sub. Otherwise I probably would have ordered one to try. However, I think that I have a decent sub for the $600 I paid.

    It doesn't sound boomy. It is relatively tight, especially for a reflex design, and blends well with my Studio 60's.

    I don't know if this helps you or not, but I thought I'd give my personal experience with this sub.
     
  12. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    Vaughan:

    You're a little mixed up on your SVS terminology.

    The subsonic filter on the PC+ series prevents the subwoofer from playing frequencies below its set point. It has a sloping filter rate, probably around 24 dB/octave. This is what helps prevent the woofer from bottoming out, since cone excursion increases dramatically at the subsonic frequencies below the tuning point of the enclosure.

    The port blocker (a custom fit dense foam plug) lowers the tuning point of the subwoofer by plugging one (or two) of the vent ports. The triple 3" vents and the port blocker plugs are available on the CS+, PC+, and Ultra series.

    As to your question - yes, there are very brief periods where some DVD's dip into the subsonic range. Most of it is found in the 15-20 Hz range. There are exceptions, though - the THX Exploding Ball intro drops to 10 Hz pretty strong, and U-571 drops to 5 Hz in a few spots.

    I think trying to capture 100% of the subsonic bass of every single DVD epitomizes the phrase "reaching a point of diminishing returns".

    I think flat, clean, reference level bass response to 16 Hz IS within reasonable financial reach.

    Conversely, I think flat, clean, reference level bass response to 10Hz (or even lower) IS NOT within reasonable financial reach. It would cost you a small fortune, if it can even be done at all.

    I don't know how big your room is, or how many openings there are to other rooms. These things greatly affect the ability to hit 120+ dB bass peaks on playback.

    With that said - in a 1,700 ft3 room with minimal openings to other areas, any of the following packages should be able to cleanly hit or even exceed 120 dB bass peaks at the couch.

    Dual 16-46PC+ with a tuning point of 16 Hz with all three ports open, will play louder and cleaner in the 20-15 Hz range than just about any other commercial competitor in the $1,800 price range.

    Sacrifice just a tad of ultra low end stuff, and dual 20-39PC+ with a tuning point of 20 Hz with all three ports open, will play even a bit louder than the twin 16's at frequencies above 20 Hz.

    Dual Ultras, with a tuning point of 20 Hz with all three ports open, will play about 2 dB louder and a bit cleaner than the dual 20-39PC+. If you went with dual Ultra's be aware the Ultra has no on-board amp and no SS filter. If you are justifiably concerned about bottoming at reference levels, I strongly advise purchasing the SVS01 Bass Box. This unit goes between the LFE pre-out and your external 2 channel amp. It has dual outputs, and provides LFE signal gain, variable phase control, and an adjustable SS filter. The twin Ultra package with the Samson S1000 500 WPC amp, Better Cables Interconnect, and the SVS01 Bass Box will cost you about $2,250.

    Regards,

    Ed
     
  13. Vaughan

    Vaughan Agent

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    Edward, what I mean't to say, was that each svs subwoofer would consentrate on their respective frequencies, ie. not letting them play frequencies below their optimum range, so as to allow maximum spl.My room is roughly 15 by 15 feet long with 1 openings into kitchen.What I said was a little impractible, as stated above, but i'm sure this is the only way to get reference at every frequency the cleanest, as having speakers that can achieve reference level, does not bode well to their longetivity as far as distorion levels go, as you should know, it is better to have speakers that can achieve, 125db's than 121db, as you are clearly pushing the speakers to the limit where distorion will make itself known.But of course, if you can give a better reason to achieving this ,then please be my guest. [​IMG]
     
  14. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    I think you need to take a look at this graph and they revisit your impractical option to see just how very impractical it would be Vaughn [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    16-46PCi is in purple, 20-39PCi is in red, and the 25-31PCi is in light blue
     
  15. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    Vaughan:

    I understand what you were trying to say, but I think the logic you are applying is flawed.

    As the chart Dustin provided illustrates, the frequency reponse of the three sizes of SVS enclosures have far more in common than they differ.

    The 16 series has the deepest extension of the three sizes, and if you want reference level bass at 16 Hz, then this enclosure size is your best bet. If you suspect the dual 16-46PC+ would be pushing their limits at reference level, then you are better off simply buying a third 16-46PC+, instead of mixing different enclosure sizes. Now, however, you are getting into some pretty serious money and taking up a lot of floor space.

    Regardless, I know of no commercial sub with a lower natural tune than the 16-46 size enclosure. If stuffing multiple 16-46PC+ enclosures into your room is not do-able, then seriously look into DIY or have someone custom design and build you a sub capable of 125+ dB at 15 Hz in your room.

    The new SVS B4 Plus sub is also an option, but I believe this sub has a natural tune of about 25 Hz and would require at least one port plug to dig to 15 Hz at the SPL you are describing.

    Like I said above - you are reaching a point of diminishing returns when you are trying to capture that last 0.01% of source material at 15 Hz on a handful of DVDs and play it back at 125 dB. It's just not worth it IMHO.

    Ed
     
  16. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    Also keep in mind full reference level is very loud. I'm quite happy with 10dB below reference and most of my guests find that too loud.
     
  17. Vaughan

    Vaughan Agent

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    Edward, i agree with you, but it is still a bit worrying that so much effort must be taken to simply capture the whole frequency spectrum...okay up to a point...lets say to 8hz.Again what i said was not little but VERY impractible, it was the only way that i thought it would be achieved as for instance a 25-31pci gives 2-3db more clean output than a 20-39pci, and so on...,if i decided to play the phantam menace(ball explosion scene)at reference then i need ample output in the 12-20hz range and above range as this scene is a mixture of subsonic and higher bass frequenceies,if you sacrifice even 3db's in the most common bass range, the subwoofer might strain.But i still think that a sub which is capable of atleast 4-5db over reference level, AND has extenion to 12hz would be practically immune as far as bottoming is concerned.I do know that subs that achieve this, somewhat underpowered would be far better far cleaner bass.I kn
     
  18. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Moderator
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    Anyone here value their hearing?
     
  19. Eric Hargrove

    Eric Hargrove Stunt Coordinator

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    Patrick, I couldn't help but think the same thing as I read this. Back to Vaughan's original question. A 20/39pci should easily outgun the PW2200. If you honestly want the type of extension you speak of, I think an SVS B4 or DIY are your only options. That is unless you have extremely deep pockets...
     
  20. Terry St

    Terry St Second Unit

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    Check here.
     

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