Paradigm price fixing (1 Viewer)

[TheLongshot]

To me it's about the movies. I want a system that will faithfully reproduce films and soundtracks. That's it. No compromises. I've never walked away from a product that I wanted because I didn't get a discount. If I got a discount it was a bonus but I would not let that item keep me from my goal.

Problem is, money often does get in the way, so we do the best we can. I know that my system is a bunch of compromises, but I try to make the compromises as small as possible. If I can get last year's model for a little cheaper, then maybe I do. If I can shave a little here and there on some things, maybe I can get something better elsewhere in the system. All in the quest of getting what I want.

I don't begrudge the locals. Those who deal reasonably and give me good service will get more money from me. Audio Buys have been good that way, giving me a little discount off of list, and good service to boot.

Jason

 

[James Zos]

"Here's a question to all of you bargain hunters. When you show off your gear do you brag about how much you got off of MSRP or do you REALLY showoff your system? To me, my system is about what it does, not what it cost."

Of course "what it does" is important. Who could argue with that?
But if I have a pair of $1500 speakers, say, that I got for $1000, then when my friends ask how much they cost I note WITH PRIDE how much money I saved. That is part of the deal, unless you are ridiculously wealthy or someone else is covering your expenses ...
If I pay MSRP for something I could get discounted then I feel like a fool. You know the saying about fools and their money.

 

[Susana Anderton]

If I, as a small business owner, am having a hard time selling Polk because a chain retailer in town can undercut my prices by $100-$200 then that is no good for me. I provide better service than that chain store but that won't matter if I go out of business.

Dan,

But if you didn't provide better service than the chain, then your price would not be worth it. The service should be part of the package you're selling, and should factor into the decision to buy. I've bought locally for more money instead of for rock-bottom prices on the internet knowing that I can drive right back if there's a problem, or even return it if I'm not satisfied. But if I just wanted to buy a pair of speakers and never go back to the store (about that purchase) then I would try to find the cheapest price I can, knowing I would not need to utilize the better service. And if I were to need that extra service for a product I bought at a chain or on the internet, tough luck! That was the gamble I took trying to save money.

 

[Susana Anderton]

If Paradigm is dictating the prices at which dealers (not owned by Paradigm) can sell their product at retail, that's price fixing, and it's illegal in the US (though since the Chicago School of Economics took over the court system, good luck enforcing such a claim).

But if the dealer just says, this is the MSRP and I'm not budging, that's perfectly legal. This is just how he's dealing with the competitive situation; if he can make it stick, good for him, and if not, he'll be out of business shortly.

Basically, the issue is whether there is action taken to make someone else charge a certain price (note the word used is 'make', not 'encourage', as in MSRP) for something. But a unilateral refusal to discount is perfectly acceptable.

I don't think Paradigm is making any dealer charge MSRP. I don' that DEMAND dealers discount, they may charge what they can get. But Paradigm is artificially inflating prices by limiting authorized dealers by geography.

 

[Susana Anderton]

I understand the consumers views but when I see that people are equating margin with net profit I cringe. It does bother me to some degree when Susana insinuates that owners make too much money. Small business owners take huge risks. If they are successful shouldn't they be rewarded for the risk they took?

Bill,

Small business owners take huge risks, and if they are successful then they should be rewarded hugely, and we should not question their profits. But at the same time if they are not successful then they shouldn't whine about margins, profits and greedy consumers. As they stand to make lots of money they should also assume the risks like men!

 

[Jeff Ery]

But at the same time if they are not successful then they shouldn't whine about margins, profits and greedy consumers. As they stand to make lots of money they should also assume the risks like men!
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I think most MEN just want FAIR competition and A LEVEL playing field...of course internet dealers can charge less they don't have the overhead, but don't we NEED to LISTEN...Isn't that just common sense. Let's distinguish between differant B&M's and people who provide little or no service.............

 

[Susana Anderton]

I think most MEN just want FAIR competition and A LEVEL playing field...of course internet dealers can charge less they don't have the overhead, but don't we NEED to LISTEN...Isn't that just common sense. Let's distinguish between differant B&M's and people who provide little or no service.............

What' FAIR about geographical monopolies and internet and mail-order sales bans? What's UNFAIR about letting my local Circuit City/Best Buy sell these speakers? They might actually give the customers a good price. GASP! And these local stores give BETTER service than my local Paradigm monopoly, er, dealer. Paradigm doesn't want ANY competition, much less FAIR competition. They just want to keep their prices as hight as possible. Can't you see that at all?

Don't you see how some Paradigm-enabled, overpriced B&M's PROVIDE NO SERVICE, but reap the benefits of these protectionist policies?

 

[Brian OK]

Susana,

Please, enough of the harping on Paradigm, or any other manaufacturer who sets up distribution based upon economy of scale. If any manufacturer chooses to market their product so that they can provide adequate coverage, yet ensure a decent margin for their distributors, then so be it.

Buy B&W if that makes you feel like the distributor gave you a discounted price. Your harangue against Paradigm is more than a week old.
Get creative and find a source that can give you Paradigm at the price you seem to demand. Find a friend on a border state to Canada like I did. It will save you hundreds. Feel happier ?

BOK

 

[Susana Anderton]

Buy B&W if that makes you feel like the distributor gave you a discounted price. Your harangue against Paradigm is more than a week old. Get creative and find a source that can give you Paradigm at the price you seem to demand. Find a friend on a border state to Canada like I did. It will save you hundreds. Feel happier ?

My harangue? I didn't start this thread.

Find a source? Paradigm's policies make that pretty darn hard. What, should I drive from Miami to Canada just to buy a center channel speaker?

The price I demand? Pretty clueless.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THIS THREAD, THEN DON'T READ IT!!!!!!!!!

 

[Craig Morris]

I don't have a problem with limiting the number of Brand X dealers in a set geographical area. If they didn't do this there would likely be a perpetual cycle of one dealer driving another out of business.

What I do have a problem with are the brands that basically harass and threaten their dealers and force them to sell product above a certain price point. Paradigm and Rotel are 2 examples I've experience first hand... I'm sure there are others...

Why aren't dealers allowed to sell for as little profit as they see fit? Once they buy it from the company, doesn't it belong to them? I could sell my Revels for one dollar if I wanted... why do dealers have restrictions imposed on them?

I'm so glad I don't have to deal with this crap anymore... my dealer WORKS for my business by offering me deals I can't pass up...
Companies like Paradigm and Rotel have lost my business due to their strange way of managing their dealer network. I'm surprised that dealers are prepared to put up with that crap.
Pull your product because the dealer is misrepresenting your products... pull your product because the dealer provides poor service... pull your product because the dealer is laundering money for the mafia... DON'T pull your product just because a dealer provides a good price to lock up a sale. That's just rediculous.

 

[James Bergeron]

What does Paradigm have to gain by a store selling at MSRP???????????????????

A store buys the speaker at X amount, they can sell it at whatever they want. Paradigm doesn't gain by them selling them for more money, the store does. If the store wants to sell them $100 less than the next guy he stands to sell more of them. But it seems as though they don't since they know you have to go far to find them someplace else.

 

[Craig Morris]

I agree James. That's the whole point... why does Paradigm threaten dealers who offer a better discount than they deem 'acceptable'?

If I had to guess, I'd say it's brand image. They don't want their product associated with deep discounts, big box stores, or internet shopping. Brand snob-ism I guess...

 

[Dave Nibeck]

If Paradigm is dictating the prices at which dealers (not owned by Paradigm) can sell their product at retail, that's price fixing, and it's illegal in the US (though since the Chicago School of Economics took over the court system, good luck enforcing such a claim).

I don't believe this is true. Price fixing occurs with either monopolistic companies or two or more competing companies collude to effect competition. If a manufacturer wants product sold for a specific price, who would it hurt? Look at Weber grills. Ever see one go on sale?

It's ok to not support Paradigm's business model by purchasing other speakers. That’s what our system is based on. It is crazy to complain that they do not offer more competition to lower prices. It's their product. Do you criticize Ford dealerships for not selling Chevy? Of course not.

There seams to be a lot of anti-business sentiment in these posts. Funny coming from people who are clearly benefiting from a system that allows them to make enough money to purchase the finer things in life.

 

[Susana Anderton]

There seams to be a lot of anti-business sentiment in these posts. Funny coming from people who are clearly benefiting from a system that allows them to make enough money to purchase the finer things in life.

Anti-protectionism is NOT anti-business. Our "system" is a competitive, free market system. We can be successful in our system without resorting to such anti-consumerism.

 

[Matt Jesty]

Do you suggest that BestBuy should market every product on the market? Of course not.
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No, only that every manufacturer has to let somebody somewhere whore-out their product 'cause that's what "I" wan't!!!!!!!
There are countless examples of mnfgrs in differant buisnesses making sure that their dealers are happy selling their product (Bose of course, is one) I could, if I choose, make GOOBS of money selling Bose because everyone knows that its the same price everywhere so ,my sales ability, store policies, demonstration of knowledge of audio is ,undoubtably, in my geographic area going to give me that sale......The flip side is that if I recomend a product that is not so protected, I could do an excellent sales job, demo beutifully, explain to the customer how it will perform exactly to their needs, sound far better than BOSE, ETC,ETC, and loose the sale to Link Removed or Monkey Love Bill's House of Audio simply do to the almighty discount junkie...
People here say everyday that they "just can't pay retail"
well dealers are just trying to say I don't want to be forced to discount.......
WAIT TILL JAN....I hear that 2 major buying groups are going to boot several members, at least 2 mnfgrs, and put more than a few on notice that they only want to continue with lines that have CLEAN distribution......
I don't like this either but this is what happens when people have to make hard buisness choices........

 

[wayne p]

I have no problem with Paradigm's business practices. The net result seems to be a very good product at a reasonable price. There is also some level of quality to their dealers vs the big box chain stores. Last but not least, this control on the distribution of their product serves to maintain the resale value for those of us who have invested in these speakers. Not bad for the company, the dealers, and the customers. In a market filled with competing brands at all price points, I tip my hat at their design/build and marketing success.

 

[aldamon]

To me it's about the movies. I want a system that will faithfully reproduce films and soundtracks. That's it. No compromises. I've never walked away from a product that I wanted because I didn't get a discount. If I got a discount it was a bonus but I would not let that item keep me from my goal.

Bill, I have met very few people in my life who shop like this. Your clients must have a lot of disposable income.

 

[Dave Nibeck]

What' FAIR about geographical monopolies and internet and mail-order sales bans? What's UNFAIR about letting my local Circuit City/Best Buy sell these speakers?

And who should be the arbiter about what products are sold by whom and for what amount? How does that fit into the capitalistic model?

Hmm, I can make 30 excellent widgets a week based on quality, manufacturing, distribution, etc. In order to do so, I must limit my distribution to keep my costs down and profit up. However, I must sell 300 a week via low end mass marketing retail establishments at a smaller profit because why? So you can get a better widget for the price of a regular one?

Its a simple lesson in economics. If you like the product and price, buy it. I can complain all day long that I can't afford a Porche but Porche is under no obligation to mass market a product I can afford.

We are not talking about an inelastic product, like insulin. We are talking about luxury items.

 

[Bill Lucas]

aldamon,

I live in the county with the highest per capita income in the nation. #3 is right across the Potomac River in Maryland.

Dave,

I couldn't agree more. I'd go into more depth but I prefer to avoid the flames at this point.

Matt,

Where are you in the Mid-Atlantic? I'm smack dab in the middle.

 

[Jeff Ery]

very close Bill, very close.....