Paradigm Active 40's vs Def Tech BP 2002's. (1 Viewer)

[Hubert]

I'm crossing my BP3000s at 30Hz, but I'm experimenting with 35Hz. No, they aren't flat to 20Hz. Never expected them to be.

 

[Hubert]

Let's please not turn this thread into another argument about bass response. This thread has very little to do with that. By the way, I did refer to them as satellites. What else would you call a speaker that's 21" tall and has one tweeter and two 6.5 drivers? Certainly not a tower. Maybe it's not a small satellite, but in my way of thinking it defenitely is a satellite. Or would you rather I call it a bookshelf.
Ken, I would also recommend an external sub. The subs in your Def Techs are not all that big or powerful. I have a Velodyne HGS-18 with my BP3000s.
[Edited last by Hubert on November 11, 2001 at 02:01 PM]
[Edited last by Hubert on November 11, 2001 at 02:04 PM]
[Edited last by Hubert on November 11, 2001 at 02:06 PM]

 

[PomingF]

Ken, keep your Def Tech/Servo 15 for HT and get a pair of Active 40's plus a nice tube preamp for music. That way everybody will be happy.
Believe me I've been there and that's what I have now. No, I didn't go with Paradigm instead other speaker brands for music.
PF

 

[Thomas_Berg]

i'm a 70/30 music/HT guy and was browsing at my local hifi store last week. i got a demo of the Studio 40's and a pair of Def Tech's. WOW the Defs were great for HT, but musically, they were lacking. the detail and crispness of the Paradigms put the Def Tech's to shame! while they weren't bad for music, the Def Tech's just seemed unable to produce the clean musical playback that i demand. the Studio 40's held their own for HT purposes, again delivering accurate playback. but what i think the Def Tech's do is have a more radiant/dispersive playback that creates an incredible ambiance, which is great for movies. but when you're trying to listen for clean playback for music, the 'scatterdness' of the sound isn't as appealing to the ears as the perfect reproduction of the Paradigms. (i hope you get what i mean, as this is difficult to put in words!)
when my purchase date rolls around, it's gonna be a pair of Paradigm Studio 40's.
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-Thomas
My HT

 

[Thomas_Berg]

and, yes, a separate subwoofer is a MUST! the 'subs' in your towers will not be suitable for movies OR music!!
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-Thomas
My HT

 

[Bob_A]

quote: WOW the Defs were great for HT, but musically, they were lacking. the detail and crispness of the Paradigms put the Def Tech's to shame! [/quote]
You really cannot judge the DT's by what you hear in an in-store audition IMHO. You really have to spend some time breaking them in fully, carefully positioning them, and carefully mating them with associated equipment. Believe me, DT's should be incredibly detailed and crisp when using well "matching" equipment. I heard some Paradigm Studio 100's mated with Parasound equipment, and they couldn't hold a candle to my DT 2000TL's for music...but I won't judge them based on this because it was only an in-store audition.
quote: and, yes, a separate subwoofer is a MUST! the 'subs' in your towers will not be suitable for movies OR music!![/quote]
Listen to a pair of bp2000TL's wired "full range" in the bass, and tell me that they are not suitable for movies or music But for HT in particular, I agree that a quality external sub is desireable for basically any loudspeaker.
Edit: FWIW, I know one user who switched from Paradigm Studio 100's to Def Tech bp30's for a music/movies setup.
[Edited last by Bob_A on November 11, 2001 at 06:01 PM]
[Edited last by Bob_A on November 11, 2001 at 06:04 PM]

 

[Hubert]

WOW the Defs were great for HT, but musically, they were lacking. the detail and crispness of the Paradigms put the Def Tech's to shame!"
Not going to get into an argument of what sound we like, but you obviously did not listen to the speaker I have. I heard the Paradigms and I put the Def Techs on par with the Paradigms with Music and ahead in HT. You must have heard a poorly set up and pitifully matched amp if you got that feeling, which is probable since most HT stores do a pathetic job of setting up these speakers properly. They require careful setup.
"and, yes, a separate subwoofer is a MUST! the 'subs' in your towers will not be suitable for movies OR music!!"
Completely untrue and way off base. Yes, for the absolute best best in the lowest octave, a seperate sub is the best way to go. But the subs in the Def Techs are way more than suitable for music and HT. I have no idea where you got that idea.
Here we go again. Turning a thread that had nothing to do with it, into an argument about bass. This is not needed. The topic didn't really ask about bass.

 

[Sania M]

Due to Bob's response about what equipment the Def Tech was hooked up to I went and auditioned the 2006's again. They were great sounding again. I really think they would be great for Home Theater again. I didn't want to reply w/ the I heard them in the showroom, quite good one actually, and the difference was apparent enought despite the wiring. I mean I don't sleep w/ these speakers . The receiver's I switched between were a high-end Yamaha 100W*6 and Pioneer Elite 33 TX or something. Anyway it was decent equipment. I don't remember the amp. Besides the Sales Assistant being a Jackass and telling me he had to go make some money ten minutes into talking with me, the Def Tech's did sound great. I'm still iffy about that powered sub. They are excellent speakers for the price. They go at 1000 for a pair and I'm sure I could haggle them down a bit. The Active 40's were far superior to me and this is why the showroom and equipment didn't factor in much. Who's to say that whatever I do for the Def Tech's I can't do for the Actives. Besides placement and receivers and wiring do I have any other hassles. I agree w/ the review made earlier that the actives had a beautiful soundstage and each little sound was just perfectly placed. It was so clear. It was slightly forward, but in a good way. It really drew me into the music. It was great for HT too. The bipolars were different and I liked the disperse sound. I feel the same though. I liked the Actives better. I would rec'd the Def Tech's to many people in that price range b/c most people would not be willing to jump the border for the Actives. It's probably a moot point if the Active being cancelled rumour is true. They are both great speakers, but my tastes highly prefer the actives. They are so smooth. That is a very high compliment b/c that was one of the DT's strengths, it's smoothness. Of all the speakers the Klipsch Reference were the ones that were intriguing, but I did not like. All of you Klipsch owners can just ignore that last statement. Oh, and the Def Tech's are really nice looking slim towers. Maybe I'll tell my parents to get these...

 

[Bob_A]

Sania, don't the Active 40's sell for much more than the bp2006TL's? I was under the impression that the Active 40's were closer in price range to the bp2000TL's (2000-2500/pair street price). Now, the performance jump from the 2006TL to the 2000TL is quite significant IMHO.
But anyway...I have heard my speakers at the dealer with a yamaha rx-v1 (I have the sonically similar dsp-A1) and they sounded pretty good...but it sounds SO much better at home once I was able to try some different wiring options and placement options. Sure you could do this with Paradigm too...but these DT's are bipolar powered towers which are almost certainly much more sensitive with respect to placement. Don't forget that the DT's can use as much "good" current as you can give them because they have impedance curves which dip low.
All those questions I asked you were just some of the things I felt were important for a user to consider when listening to Def Tech bipolar powered towers. Of course it is very difficult to do all of that at the store, so that is why I say you really must live with them to truly appreciate them.
[Edited last by Bob_A on November 11, 2001 at 07:01 PM]
[Edited last by Bob_A on November 11, 2001 at 07:02 PM]
[Edited last by Bob_A on November 11, 2001 at 07:09 PM]

 

[Sania M]

Taking Canadian Prices, exchange rate and 25% off you can basically take any Canadian price and cut it in half and expect just a little touch more. I calculated it to be about .475 of the original price. That puts the Active 40's at 1100. I had spoken to a dealer, but he doesn't have the 40's. He gave me the go-ahead on any other speakers following the same strategy and No, I'm not givng his name out b/c I know Paradigm's policy. Oh, and I misprinted on the earlier message it was 1100 for the 2006 and I could easily haggle him down to a 1000. I might be able to something similar on the Def Tech's b/c they are Canadian too. I'm still unsure about the built-in sub. What do you think about the bp line w/ a separate sub? The BP-8 pair go for 500.
[Edited last by Sania M on November 11, 2001 at 08:25 PM]

 

[Bob_A]

Def Techs are not from Canada, but anyway...Paradigms are reputed to be a great value especially if you can go to Canada. I think nonpowered towers + external subs would make a great setup. Powered towers + external subs could be even nicer

 

[Sania M]

Maybe they just did their research in the NRC-> Canadian right. Wouldn't having a flat response down to the crossover of the sub be the main thing to look at when it comes to the subs? Therefore, it doesn't matter if the floorstanders are powered, right? You could crossover anywhere below 80 hz, b/c at that point sound is omnidirectional or lacking a source. I'm pretty sure that's right b/c I tested it. That's why I have always debated good bookshelves and a sub

 

[Bob_A]

Yes I think Def Tech might do some research there.
Some people say that you should have a flat response to one octave below the crossover point. Of course, this is subject to debate...but certainly the crossover points are not fixed points since there is overlap between speaker and sub. The reason I say powered towers + external subs could be more satisfying than nonpowered towers + external subs is that one member of this forum actually compared two such setups at home (bp30 vs. bp2000TL) and he found the powered tower setup to be superior! Granted it was in his room, but I think the powered sections must have been a factor here because the bp30 and bp2000TL have the exact same drivers (other than the built in sub in the latter).

 

[MatthewJ S]

I thought that one of the largest advantages to bi-polar speakers was their wide dispersion and ease of placement? At least that is what all of the def tec reps have been touting for years.You are supposed to be able to ,according to their peolpe, "plunk" them down in any room ,however acoustically challenged it is , and get great response from almost any seating arrangement...If they are that placement sensitive ,I should talk to their reps and let them know that they're wrong.

 

[Tyson]

Bob,
I believe that the 1 full octave below the crossover comes in to play much more when using a 12db/octave crossover (which many receivers use). But if you use a steeper crossover, you need less & less bass response below the crossover point from your main speakers. With a 24db/octave (4th order) crossover, you actually need very little bass response from your mains below the crossover point, at least in my experience.
Of course, it is somewhat of a moot point, since most receivers use a fixed 80hz crossover point & a 12db/octave crossover. In that case, the Active 40's certainly fill the 40hz bass response (1 full octave below 80hz), so anything below this, even with a shallow 12db/octave crossover, would be wasted in these scenario's.
Not making any comment on the DT's, as I have not heard them set up in a manner you describe as optimal, I did want to say that the Active 40's are a gem of a little speaker. Best value of Paradigms entire line, and by a wide margin too. Most Paradigms speakers are OK, but not great. The active 40's are a cut above the rest, IMO.

 

[Bob_A]

Matthew, for home theater you can pretty much just put the DT's anywhere and they will sound excellent. For music, it takes a little fine tuning...an inch of toe in here or there impacts the sound. Still, I have only 4 feet of space in between my speakers and they sound wonderful. I think the most important thing for me was cleaning up my wiring, and then placing the speakers so that they were exactly the same distance from the rear wall, exactly the same distance from the side wall (in the walled insert) and had the same degree of toe in.
Tyson, thanks for the clarification. I still think the powered towers would have more audible output from 40-80Hz relative to the Active 40's...but particularly if you can get the Active 40's from Canada, it seems to represent a remarkable value...and I am sure it is a great speaker.

 

[Ken Lopata]

Tyson, have you heard the active 40's anywhere in Denver. I live in Ken-Caryl. Soundtrack carries all the Def Techs, that's where I bought my 2002's, CLR 2000 and BP2x's. Cherry Creek Audio is worthless, a Company in Colorado Springs told me they're the largest Paradigm seller in the region and love the active 40's - they say they're a lot better then the 100's, but don't stock them. I wish I could hear them in person.
Everyone, thanks for all the replies. The reason I thinking of upgrading was because my new dual Stryke HE15/Crown K2 sub is so awesome. This monster has the power of 3-4 Velo. HGS 18's and is as musical as my Paradigm Servo 15. Why not spend more money on frequencies above 60hz when I have everything below it covered better with my dual HE15 then any other sub available commercial or DIY. I can spend 2-3 times the 1,450/pair I was quoted by the dealer in Colorado Spring for the Active 40's if needed. Will I really get 2-3 times the quality of sound. Remember, the actives don't need an amp. If I got a pair of Def Tech BP2000tl's for 2,000/pair plus a good 3 channel amp for the fronts for 2,000 we're already up to 4,000 for the fronts.
This one recent (10/2001) review I read about the active 40's compares them to Dynaudio 1.3 mk II's with a 10,000 Krell FPB 300 amp and 1,300 of cables. The reviewer said this combo was sweeter sounding, " but at 6 times the cost it should."
What's a guy to do.
Thanks, Ken

 

[Earl_C]

Ken,
Active/40's are one of the absolute best values in high-end audio today. Coupling them with one of the processors you mentioned will make for a highly accurate and streamlined system. And you can certainly take that money saved on amps to help upgrade your source components to the level of your speaker/processor combo. You'll also be surprised at how low you can cross them over too.
Can someone tell me the point of a tower speaker in a multi-channel set-up? For one, no matter what the specs' say they are not full range(20HZ-20kHZ). If you want to say it looks nice then so be it. But don't tell me there is some inherent advantage to the design. In any multi-channel set-up the most important speaker is the center channel, period. With high-res audio and discete soundtracks this is the speaker doing the most work thus having the greatest effect on the overall sound of the system. And no matter what the designer says you will not get identical tonality and pitch as sounds move from speaker to speaker when your mains are twice the size as your center. Maybe if your processor is sophisticated enough to compensate it would help but who knows what the results would be from movie to movie or cd to cd? The only solution would be similar enclosures for the front 3 at least, and all 5-7 if possible. I won't even get into the bass problems....
Oh yeah, that guy was right, it is like buying the speakers and stealing the amps!
[Edited last by Earl_C on November 12, 2001 at 10:59 AM]

 

[Bob_A]

quote: If I got a pair of Def Tech BP2000tl's for 2,000/pair plus a good 3 channel amp for the fronts for 2,000 we're already up to 4,000 for the fronts. [/quote]
Are you planning on upgrading both speakers and amplification? What amplification are you using right now? Do not forget that you would need to take a loss on your 2002's...if you get the 2000TL's, you can shift the 2002's to the rear.
If possible, I think you should audition the 2000TL's and the Active 40's...and possibly some other speaker brands like Von Schweikert etc.
Earl, IMHO the ultimate setup would be near full range speakers all around + external sub(s). Even Dolby themselves recommend this. I think such a setup needs to be heard in order to be fully appreciated. Of course, for most people this is not feasible due to room constraints and/or budgetary constraints.
[Edited last by Bob_A on November 12, 2001 at 11:14 AM]

 

[Earl_C]

"Earl, IMHO the ultimate setup would be near full range speakers all around + external sub(s). Even Dolby themselves recommend this. I think such a setup needs to be heard in order to be fully appreciated. Of course, for most people this is not feasible due to room constraints and/or budgetary constraints."
Again I don't totally agree but Monolith mains with a center 1/4 the size is a serious compromise with no sonic advantages at all.