Paradigm 470 vs 570. Which one for HT?

Discussion in 'AV Receivers' started by Kevin. W, Oct 26, 2003.

  1. Kevin. W

    Kevin. W Screenwriter

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    Paradigm 470 vs 570 for HT??
    Just curious which of the Paradigm Centers would be better in a HT setup? I know people have said the 570 is for the 100's and the 470 for the rest. But those who have the 570 with the 40's and 20's your input would be appreciated.

    Kevin
     
  2. Kevin. W

    Kevin. W Screenwriter

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    Please move to appropriate section. Sorry.

    Kevin
     
  3. Ernest Yee

    Ernest Yee Supporting Actor

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    I would say from a speaker construction / timbre matching standpoint that your first assesment about how the 570s are for the 100s and the 470s are for the rest are correct b/c I believe the 570s are a true 3 way speaker while the 470s are 2 or 2.5 way.
     
  4. VinnieR

    VinnieR Extra

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    I have some interesting info on the CC570 that you should know before you buy one.

    First, a little about my system:

    -Fronts Studio 100s V2 (went with V2s intentionally. These were the units various publications raved about and I wanted these not the V3s. Also, I like the looks of the V2s and the larger woofers better.)
    -Center CC570 V3. Wanted the better power handling and the additional speaker over the Studio CC associated with the V2.
    -Surrounds. ADP 470, V3. (Dealer didn't have any Studio ADPs in black. Glad I got these. Love the sound and I have had no problems with them.)
    - Back surrounds: Two Studio 20s, V2.
    - Sub is a Servo 15

    I'm driving all these with a Denon AVR-5803. (I assume that you know that Paradigm Reference need powerful amps. They are less efficient than many other brands such as Klipsch.) Video is provided by a Runco CL710 LT front projecting into a 110 inch diagonal (8 ft wide by 4.5 ft high) Austin Filmscreen 1.25 gain fixed screen. Overall I love the system.

    Now on to the CC570 saga. When I first set up the speaker in June of this year, I was surprised at the very different sound between the Studio 100s and the CC570. I expected some difference between V2 and V3, but not as much as I heard. Dialog sounded somewhat muddy and the upper frequencies were weak. Also I was distressed by the fact that using my ears during setup I felt I needed to have the CC570 at +6 to +7 db to match the output of the rest of the speakers. (Later, when I got a Radio Shack digital sound pressure meter, I found that the actual difference needed to be +9.5 db.) I was so concerned that I had made a bad choice in center channel speakers to match the fronts, that I wrote Paradigm tech support. They told me that the CC570 was a fine choice to go with the 100s and that their sound was closely matched. I was highly confused.

    About three weeks into ownership (with the CC570 set to +7 db) I noticed a sudden loss of high frequency. I was running the system pretty loud at the time (as I always do) but didn't think it loud enough to blow the drivers in the center and I was no where near the clipping level on the Denon's 170 watt/channel rating. (I've been doing serious audio since I was 10 years old and basically know how not to blow speakers and how to identify clipping, etc.) Disgusted, I took the 570 back to the local dealer. He first listened to the speaker declared it really muddy and lacking any upper treble output. After comparing its sound to a new unit on the floor, he declared my speaker broken, sent it to the repairman in the back who diagnosed a blown tweeter. The dealer gave me a new CC570 on the spot and I went home pleased with the dealers service. But wait, there's more...

    I installed the new speaker, found I still needed the +7 correction, but the treble was back to some extent. Could hear very high frequencies, but dialog was still muddy. Decided that I had bought the wrong center channel speaker and, despite loving the rest of the Paradigms, decided to look for something else for the center.

    I didn't do anything for about 8 weeks, still researching my expected replacement for the CC570. (For what its worth, I had decided on the Def Tech CLR 3000.) While watching a movie at ridiculously high levels (Can't help myself. I may be in my 50s but I'm still a kid at heart.), I lost all upper frequency in the center. Again!!! Even my wife, who is a long way from an enthusiast, noticed it. I was po'd, big time.

    Again contacted Paradigm tech support and asked it they were having any trouble with the CC570. They responded that no one had reported any problems and gave the standard song and dance that I had probably driven the amp into clipping and it was my fault the 570 had blown its tweeter. "You need a more powerful amp," they said. Talk about male cow excrement!

    So I called my dealer again, told him I was coming in with the speaker and was looking for a solution. The dealer said good, because I think I have the solution to the problem. The dealer told me that when I brought in the first CC570 two months earlier, they had asked the local Paradigm rep who visits dealers in Texas about the problem. The rep told them that the early production 570s (my first unit was number 29) had a badly manufactured mid range speaker. Basically the mid range cone was assembled about a quarter to a half inch off center (a half inch, for God's sake??!! Was their inspector sight challenged?) and the cone was therefore jammed. The result was no midrange output at all. (Can you say "muddy dialog"?) Also, of course, the total output of the speaker was considerably down, which explained the +9.5 db meter measured difference in output. This, of course, caused me to drive the center channel too hard to compensate. The end result, was that the tweeter, driven too hard, eventually failed. This happened in three weeks with the first unit and about 8 weeks with the second. Additionally, apparently with the mid range frozen, feedback from the cross over routed midrange info to the tweeter which also contributed to the tweeter failure.

    My second unit was inspected and a blind man could see the off center mid range driver cone. Also, you could not get the speaker cone to move in and out with finger pressure as you should. The problem was obvious. (By the way, the second unit was serial number 432.) The dealer told me that all the units in his stock had been inspected by the Paradigm rep and found to have defective mid range drivers. The Paradigm rep took them all back and sent replacements. For me, the dealer pulled another unit from the replacement stock (serial number 32), but it had a new midrange speaker without the problem. I took it, my third CC570, home.

    I've had this speaker about three weeks now and I couldn't be happier. The unit matched the output of the 100s to within about 0.5 db on the Radio Shack meter. The sound is a near dead-on match for the V2 100s. Dialog is clear. Treble output is spot on. It is an amazing speaker system. And I have driven it to volume levels that make the cat's ears bleed ( I hate cats!) with no problems whatsoever. Finally I have put the speaker issue behind me.

    Couple of more thoughts. You might be curious why the CC570 V3 gave me so much trouble and not the ADP 470 V3 surrounds. The answer, of course, is that the 470s don't contain the midrange driver that is in the 570. You might also wonder about the second response from Paradigm tech support. I do too. Seems to me that if a field rep knew about the problem with the 570s, tech support should also know. My guess is that the tech support people are not really technicians but are just guys hired off the street who provide stock answers to FAQs from some Paradigm manual that is on desk in front of their computer. Their response on needing more amplifier power is right out of the Paradigm owners manual.

    Sorry this is so long, but I had to get it off my chest. My advice to you is simple. Get the CC570. You'll love it. But be sure to check the midrange driver before you leave the store.[​IMG]
     
  5. Ernest Yee

    Ernest Yee Supporting Actor

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    No - I believe Kevin owns 40s and 20s. The v2s and v3s are supposedly timbre matched according to Paradigm. So a 3 way CC 570 would work (at least on paper) w/ the v2 100s. However, if it were matched w/ a pair of 40s, I'm not sure it would work so well.
     
  6. Ernest Yee

    Ernest Yee Supporting Actor

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    Good Story, by the way...
     
  7. Kevin. W

    Kevin. W Screenwriter

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    Ernest, you are correct in that I own the version 3 40's and 20's. I also have the 470 but was just wondering if getting the 570 would be better for HT while I'm still in my able to take back upgrade window.

    Kevin
     
  8. Ernest Yee

    Ernest Yee Supporting Actor

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    It really depends on how finicky you are with your equipment. Personally - I am never at a state where I'm like - "wow - I'm glad I'm done" - because this hobby is just that. There are endless possibilities where you can upgrade, expand, replace, etc etc...

    So I guess if you have a window for the 100s in the near future, I would say go for the 570 now and try to balance it as best as you can while saving up. Otherwise, I would say stay w/ the 470.

    Heck, even if you dont sell anything to acquire 100s, you would have the killer 7.1 setup!
     
  9. itai

    itai Stunt Coordinator

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    VinnieR, shouldnt the store call you up, recalling the bad speaker from their own initiative, not waiting for you to call them first???
    nice story telling, anyway!...:)
     
  10. Levesque

    Levesque Supporting Actor

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    VinnieR.

    I completelhy agree with you. I use the 100v2 with a 570, and they blend perfectly.

    For HT, I don't think you would see much of a difference with a 470. But if, like me, you are a hi-rez lover, then DVD-A and SACD will benefit form the 570.

    With my new Denon DVD-5900, with source direct on, I send a full-range signal to all my speakers, and it's there that the 570 is singing. [​IMG]
     
  11. VinnieR

    VinnieR Extra

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    I agree with Ernest Yee on the choice of speakers. If you can swing it at this time, go for the 570. Particularly if you are considering upgrading to 100s or Signature Series or whatever in the future. The V2 Studio 20s I use for back surrouds blend well with the 570, so I'm certain that the 40s or 60s would match even better. (Of course, the rear surrounds don't carry as much info as the 100s in front, but on 7 channel stereo, the 20s and the 570 are a good match.) As the saying goes: you will never regret buying the best.

    I, too, wondered why the dealer didn't contact me about the driver problem as Itai suggested he should have. He told me that not all 570s had the bad mid range driver, so he might have assummed that the second unit I got (serial number 432) was made after the problem was discovered and corrected. This dealer has been so good at making me happy that I've chosen to give him the benefit of the doubt. Besides, after I had made my final deal on the projection screen, I asked for another $50 off to compensate me for gasoline and hassle for the multiple speaker exchange and an additional $50 for pain and suffering. To my great surprise he agreed!
     
  12. Guest

    I just bought a Paradigm cc570 v3 and believe my midrange driver isn't working. But with 2 7" woofers in the cabinet accumulating plenty of vibration, how can I tell if its working? A mid obviously sounds different than a woofer but I just don't think its working.


    I need some advice..
     

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