PAL DVD's... Ugly effects!!!

Discussion in 'DVD' started by MarcoBiscotti, Oct 8, 2005.

  1. MarcoBiscotti

    MarcoBiscotti Producer

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    Can somebody please help because I'm having a MAJOR problem...


    For some reason whenever I try to watch PAL encoded discs on my pj setup, I see these really jarring effects that almost seem like INTERLACING errors!

    Lots of flickering broken lines and jumpiness...


    I have both a Pio-Elite 59-AVi and a mid-range JVC (forget the model no. but it's a long one!) and both are region-free moded.

    I'm getting this effect with BOTH players but am more concerned with the JVC considering I'd been screening PAL movies for years with this unit prior to incorporating DLP projection without issue.

    I want to know if anyone's ever experienced similar problems and what the source of this can be or what it's related to?

    I should mention btw... that the MAJOR issues really come to surface when viewing ANIMATED movies!

    I'm trying to watch these PAL encoded Charlie Brown DVD's from Germany and while the transfer quality of the diswcs are far superior to the R1 Paramount releases... due to these jarring interlace-like effects, they are almost unwatchable!

    an somebody please, please, please help me out!

    Why am I seeing this and how can I fix it?!?!?
     
  2. Marko Berg

    Marko Berg Supporting Actor

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    Sounds like the culprit is your DLP projector then. What is the refresh rate of your projector when you are watching PAL? See if you can force this to 50Hz if you've been projecting DVDs using some other refresh rate. Make sure the projector (or the DVD player!) is not performing a conversion; ideally you want native PAL. Also, how are you connecting your player to the projector?
     
  3. Dave Mack

    Dave Mack Producer

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    Ok, I know the JVC's convert PAL-NTSC, they don't display native PAL so don't worry about the 50 hz. refresh rate for that player. I have 2 JVC modded players and it sounds like you are having combing effects from the mode your player is in. Is it in AUTO? Try manually putting it in VIDEO or FILM mode and see what happens!

    [​IMG] d
     
  4. Marko Berg

    Marko Berg Supporting Actor

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    Well, that's the problem right there then. It is absolutely not possible to achieve a perfect image using such a player; motion artifacts are going to be a problem plus you lose the additional resolution that PAL offers.
     
  5. Dave Mack

    Dave Mack Producer

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    Not neccesarily so, Marko. You do lose the res. advantage but the phenomena he is describing sounds like a combing issue from the wrong progressive mode being selected. Depending on the JVC model, there can be up to 3 modes to choose from, FILM, VIDEO 1, VIDEO 2. I now have an oppo. player that outputs native PAL at 576P at 50 hz. to my optoma 576P dlp FP and yes the pure PAL signal is definitely better than downconverting done via my JVC but for someone with an NTSC system, the JVC does just about the best PAL-NTSC conversion that's available. It is VERY acceptable and watchable. Not perfect but acceptable to watch PAL discs this way.

    [​IMG] d
     
  6. MarcoBiscotti

    MarcoBiscotti Producer

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    Sorry for not responding to this sooner, I've been having all sorts of major issues with my h.t. setup as of late that I forgot all about posting this but I really appreciate the advice!

    I have tried switching the JVC into different modes - in fact, this is how I've resolved the interlacing issues with disc 3 of the last Looney Tunes Collection in which some of the shorts (that were not properly encoded) were playing back similar effects, however it does nothing for me in this case! I usually leave the player in "auto" mode but neither "film" nor "video" seem to make any impact...

    As fdor my connections, right now I'm running component cables through an HD Leeza video scaler to my DLP. It's not ideal but unfortunately my Arcam amp won't allow me to connect HDMI. My installer said that he was going to order some sort of converter or something (I forget what hardware he mentioned) that would allow us to run HDMI but in the meantime my picture quality is suffering as a result.

    I don't know why this would have anymore of an effect on PAL encoded discs though, or why it should make any difference?

    I also realized that for whatever reason, my JVC player is not giving the right information to the Leeza in that it is recognizing the signal as NTSC.

    I tried playing the discs back in my Pioneer Elite player and for some strange reason, the Leeza does recognize the video standard as PAL sourced... but there is absolutely no difference in quality!

    In fact, my $1,000 + Pioneer-Elite 59-AVi playsback discs MUCH worse that my ~ $500 JVC player!

    Unfortunately, I don't know if my Pioneer is a defective unit or if I'm simply not giving it a chance by running component cables?

    From all accounts I've read, the Pio-Elite really excels when upconverting from 720 through HDMI... but at the same time, I can't imagine that a working high-end player would offer such ugly resolution when not optimized for HDMI!

    Even on regular R1 NTSC discs, the ammount of digital noise and aliasing is awful! It's really almost unwatchable... and I do in fact, resort to my cheaper JVC player for screenings in the meanwhile.

    Again, I don't know if I should wait to see what happens when my installer gets back to me with the adapters or whatever they are for running HDMI... or if I shoudl simply return the player and invest in something else?

    I'm still baffeled as to the playback of PAL discs though.

    I've been trying to watch my German Charlie Brown DVD's this past week and the interlace-like effects make it impossible to enjoy!

    Whenever Charlie Brown opens his mouth to speak, the thick lines break up and flicker like crazy!

    I really don't know why this is happening?
     
  7. MarcoBiscotti

    MarcoBiscotti Producer

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    Oh and btw I have the Leeza set to native 1280x720 at 60Hz.

    Should I bring it down to 50Hz ideally for PAL video playback?
     
  8. Dave Mack

    Dave Mack Producer

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    Hi again,

    The JVC only converts the PAL signal to NTSC, it doesn't output native PAL so you should be good at 720 60hz. The JVC's ARE known for having a pretty bad "video" mode. What is the model? I had the 600 which had a HORRIBLE video mode. The newer "70" model had a second video mode and it was much better. Are you sending a progressive signal out? The light will be on on the front. Try sending an interlaced signal instead, might help. You still have to use the modes as well as the JVC derives it's interlaced output from it's progressive signal. So try the different modes again and try interlaced.

    Also I have updgraded to the oppo. upconverting player which is AMAZING. Came in 2nd place in the shootouts. It outputs NATIVE PAL, 576P at 50hz. as well as upscaling up to 1080. PAL pic. looks better native than converted!

    Good Luck! D
     
  9. MarcoBiscotti

    MarcoBiscotti Producer

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    Thanks a lot Dave!

    I've got the JVC SA602. Unfortunately, I'm unable to send a progressive signal through as it just gives me a black screen when I switch to 480p on the back of the player so right now it's set to interlaced. I'm not sure why that is but I'm guessing the damn Arcam won't allow it.

    I really don't know what I should do. I'm waiting for my installer to set me up for HDMI and once we run the proper connections, I'm hoping my Pionerr-Elite 59-AVi will start to read discs properly and playback referance quality as it should for what I paid for it!

    If that doesn't happen, than I guess that means I'm stuck with a faulty unit and will be shipping that one back and be in the boat for a new DVD player.

    It's frustrating because the Pioneer Elite was ranked player of the year by Home Theater Secrets and has been fishing top reviews all accross the board. It cost me over a grand with a modded chip, and I was partially convinced because I also wanted the SACD playback option.

    The sound on the unit is supreme. It gives my 5.1 channels a hell of a workout and blows the JVC out of the water! For such a high end player though, I'd assume the same as far as picture quality, but as I've said - the image is horrendous!

    So now I'm stcuk between my decent JVC which is nothing special, and the expensive top-of-the-line Pioneer which looks downright ugly.

    As it stands I can't feed the JVC a progressive signal and the playback of PAL discs is awful as I described.

    The Pioneer is no better, PAL or NTSC!

    I don't know why and I haven't the foggiest what to do... it's really frustrating!
     
  10. MarcoBiscotti

    MarcoBiscotti Producer

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    Well now I have a HUGE preoblem... I went to test out the DV59-AVi last night to play around with the remote settings and see if there wasn't something I could do about the ammount of noise and artifats I was seeing... and when I turned on the machine and switched the amp to the appropriate channel - my entire screen went screwy!

    Now when I try to turn on the Pioneer, I am seeing two images like a split screen, both cut off by the sides of the screen frame. It's also difficult to see because the overall contrast is so dim that it's almost like looking at a really, really dark monochromatic deep blue monitor. Something is definitely wrong and I can't figure out what it is!

    Why would I be seeing a darkened split screen when powering my Pioneer, but everything is fine with the JVC and can anyone suggest how I might go about fixing this?

    I have the Arcam set to the right channel because I AM seeing an image... but it's doubled as if someone placed a mirror down the center of my screen and lowered the brightness and contrast levels!
     
  11. MarcoBiscotti

    MarcoBiscotti Producer

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    I just received the new limited edition R2 PAL German box set of "A Fistfull Of Dollars" and "A Few Dollars More" and tested them out on the setup...


    Once again, the entire image appears wavy for lack of a better description. It almost looks like a camera-heat effect, you know when you're driving down the highway on a scorching hot afternoon in the summer and you look down the horizon and the road appears to flutter in the heat in a wave-like motion?

    Well that's the effect I'm seeing with these PAL discs, only not as extreme. Anywhere where there is written text, such a sign post, etc, it becomes blatantly obvious as you can see the letters sort of bounce and flutter. The image just looks very unstable.

    Can anyone else PLEASE help me out with this?

    Is it all possible that it's just a combination of me running component cables through to a not-so-great DVD player and that when I've got HDMI wired and connected to the Pioneer Elite, my problems will be resolved?
     
  12. MarcoBiscotti

    MarcoBiscotti Producer

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    Any help/suggestions at all guys?
     
  13. Jonnie M

    Jonnie M Agent

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    i just posted a new thread in the audio/video section... i am having the same problems you are having/had. Would love to know if you have figured out the cause of the problem. At this point i'm just looking for anything, it's incredibly annoying and impossible to watch.

    Thanks,
    Jon
     
  14. Brian Camp

    Brian Camp Auditioning

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    I think this problem stems from the fact that many DVD players and Displays, sold in North America, do not recognize 2-2 cadence correctly when deinterlacing PAL material. I had this problem with PAL DVDs on my Zenith DVB318. I bought a Oppo OPDV971H back in the summer and recently a news firmware was release that allows this player to properly process 2-2 Cadence PAL material. Now I only notice an occasional scene where any shimmering occurs. Since my HDTV only accepts 60Hz signals, I can't use native pal modes from the Oppo. The PAL to NTSC converter has to come into play. However, the PAL 2-2 Cadence can be properly handled. I do probably loose a bit of resolution but get mostly artifact free playback of PAL source DVDs. Other player that I've read perform proper 2-2 cadence are Denon 5910, 3910, 2910, 2900. I also believe that they can be made region free as can the Oppo.
     
  15. Jonnie M

    Jonnie M Agent

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    Thanks Brian, think i'll give the Oppo a shot. it just seems strange that Pal material would look fine on a much inferior display and then awful on an HD set.

    Thanks again,
    J
     
  16. Brian Camp

    Brian Camp Auditioning

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    I think the issue stems around that fact that DVDs are intended to be viewed on standard definition sets. They are encoded using 480 lines/NTSC or 576 lines/PAL resolution. Also, they do not have to be deinterlaced for standard definition displays. The artifacts you are seeing are the result of incorrect deinterlacing. Obviously you can never get perfect PAL quality by converting to NTSC but for some of us that is the only option. Players like the Oppo are about as good as it will get for many of us. Consumer sets that support both the 50hz clock of PAL and the 60Hz clock of NTSC are unfortunately rare to nonexistent in North America.

    Brian C.
     
  17. Dale MA

    Dale MA Screenwriter

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    I've had an issue that sounds very similiar to the problems people are having here, I solved it by turning down the "Chroma level" (what the hell is "chroma" anyway?) which reduces some of the "warmth" of the picture but does away with the highly annoying flickering.

    I've made up for the lack of warmth by altering by Hi-Def plasmas brightness, contast & colour settings using a DVE disc.

    All seems fine now.
     

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