Owner of New Denon AVR-X2800h...Can Someone Please Help with Sound Mode Confusion? (1 Viewer)

[Kaskade1309]

I finally bit the bullet and replaced our Onkyo SR605 from circa 2007 (which was still going strong save for a dying HDMI out) with a new Denon AVR-X2800h based on budget and needs. But being so familiar with Onkyo products (I wanted another one, but their new receivers don't allow you to see the sound mode you're in while confirming the input you're on at the same time, which was a deal breaker for me...along with the fact that they dropped the incredibly useful IntelliVolume feature), this has been something of a learning curve ever since I set it up a week ago. What is confusing me more than anything is the way the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixing systems deal with certain signals -- in my previous AVR, there was a menu that allowed you to assign every signal type to a specific codec. So Dolby Digital could be set to DD, DTS could set to DTS, two-channel content could be set to Pro Logic II, etc.

On these new AVRs, because Pro Logic II is no longer a thing, it seems that they memorize the last sound mode you use for each CODEC, and apply that the next time you view something -- this is becoming very daunting because I watch a ton of discs with different sound formats on them. If someone could help make some sense out of this, I would appreciate it.

The basics are these: we're running a standard 5.1 setup with Polk RTi towers in the front, a Polk CSi30 center, two SpeakerCraft in-ceiling speakers for surrounds (they were already installed in the house when we bought it) and a Polk PSW350 sub. I told the Denon we were running a 5.1 system when I first set it up, which is making this confusion with the "upmixers" even greater.

I spent a FULL WEEK playing with my new X2800, testing dozens of discs and attempting to understand how this thing works. Before I pack it up and send it back out of sheer frustration (and because I think my previous albeit old AVR just worked better for our needs), I have to go back to some fundamentals.

First of all, as I stated, I am running a basic 5.1 setup right now, and this seems to be confusing me with regard to how the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixers are functioning (also based on their behavior when they see certain signals). Before I get to my questions I have about specific operational protocols when the OPTION menu on the remote is pressed, let me ask about some things that are truly making me a bit nuts (even after reading the online manual several times and taking in the audio mode assignment pages).

When I first set the 2800 up, I obviously told the software that we had only a left front, center, right front, left surround, right surround and subwoofer -- so it SHOULD know that we're running a 5.1 array. Now, I THINK I have figured out how the upmixers work in terms of memory, but I'm still confused about why certain modes are being activated for certain situations; to begin with, why is Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X activating when we don't have any overhead speakers for an Atmos setup? Is it based on the LAST selection I made based on that codec?

What happened was this: I applied DTS Neural:X to a two-channel DTS-HD Master Audio soundtrack that was on a Blu-ray, and this sent the dialogue to the center where it belonged...but now EVERY time I watch a disc with Master Audio, even if it's 5.1/7.1, the Denon is reading "DTSHD + Neural:X" -- am I to assume this is because Neural:X was applied the last time I watched something in DTS-HD Master Audio, as was suggested earlier?

Here is my question, then: what are we actually HEARING if the Neural:X upmixer is being "applied" to a normal DTS-HD Master Audio signal played through our FIVE speakers? There are no additional speakers in which to "spread" the sound via the upmixer, so what are we hearing? Does this just indicate the upmixer was used last for this signal, but the processor isn't actually DOING anything to the incoming Master Audio signal?

In other words, when we watch discs with DTS-HD MA tracks, the receiver is showing "DTSHD + Neural:X," but I don't NEED the upmixer in the cases of plain 5.1 or 7.1 surround mixes -- is it actually "adding" anything to those tracks, or is it just a cosmetic notation on the display?

I suppose the same thing could be asked about Dolby signals -- if we're watching a disc with a standard Dolby Digital 5.1 surround track and the Denon applies Dolby Surround after that, is the signal being "enhanced" in any way being that we only have five speakers? I truly cannot grasp how these upmixers work and what they're doing.

Now, we're still getting (which is weird to me because, again, it's only a five speaker system) Dolby Atmos and DTS:X illuminating on the display when I watch discs with those soundtracks -- but is this because I kept the "Speaker Virtualization" setting on in the main setup menu? If so, what are we actually HEARING here, being that we don't have the overhead speakers? Are we basically getting the core Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio signals but with some "reverb magic" applied by the AVR due to the Virtualizer setting? What's strange is that sometimes Dolby Atmos soundtracks play back as Dolby TrueHD ("DTHD" on the Denon display); it's almost like the AVR can't properly lock on to certain signals at times.

Was there something in the setup menu I missed to tell the auto sound modes to behave a certain way?

The primary question comes down to this: being that we only have five speakers, why are upmixers being engaged, even automatically? Just based on the fact that I used one for the last two-channel soundtrack I listened to? If that's the case, do I have to manually, each and every time, go in and switch the sound mode to straight DTS-HD to get the unaltered 5.1/7.1 mix?

With that out of the way, let me address some other questions that have been bothering me....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does the TONE CONTROL selection do under the OPTIONS menu? It seems that there are only two choices, on or off, but what does this do? I thought it would open up bass and treble controls for at least the front channels, but I don't see any....are there actual tone controls available on these Denons?

What are the CHANNEL ADJUST settings under the OPTIONS menu, and what do they control? I see you can adjust each speaker from a "0 dB" point, but wasn't this already handled when I calibrated the AVR in the main setup menu? What do these levels control? Is it a temporary adjustment for the content you're currently watching, which then goes back to zero when the AVR is switched off?

Are there any options to turn off any kind of dynamic range compression, a late night mode, etc. while content is playing? Sometimes I feel like there's a "blanket" over the sound, which I didn't experience with my previous audio; I'm not running any EQ, but is there something that needs to be turned off while content is playing (like there used to be for Dolby content)?

Why do some choices pop up under OPTIONS when certain codecs are playing and not others? There seems to be a Dialog Enhancer, Tone, Level Adjust, Sync Level and something called All Zone Stereo....but these seem to vary based on the type of signal playing (unless I'm mistaken). Should these basically be left alone?

The correct setting in the subwoofer sub-menu is "LFE," correct -- not "LFE + Main"? I assumed this was like my previous AVR's "Double Bass" setting, wherein the front channels would get bass plus the sub if it was engaged, so I left it at "LFE" on the Denon.

What is the deal with the AUTO selection when you press the yellow button on the remote? When you press the PURE button, it opens up options for Pure, Direct and then Auto, and I was informed Auto was to be used so the AVR knows exactly what mode to go into when incoming signals are analyzed -- however, that doesn't seem to be happening when I press it. What seems to happen is the unit will go into a Pure or Direct mode even though I selected AUTO....does anyone know what is going on here?

 

[JimJasper]

What happened was this: I applied DTS Neural:X to a two-channel DTS-HD Master Audio soundtrack that was on a Blu-ray, and this sent the dialogue to the center where it belonged...but now EVERY time I watch a disc with Master Audio, even if it's 5.1/7.1, the Denon is reading "DTSHD + Neural:X" -- am I to assume this is because Neural:X was applied the last time I watched something in DTS-HD Master Audio, as was suggested earlier?

Here is my question, then: what are we actually HEARING if the Neural:X upmixer is being "applied" to a normal DTS-HD Master Audio signal played through our FIVE speakers? There are no additional speakers in which to "spread" the sound via the upmixer, so what are we hearing? Does this just indicate the upmixer was used last for this signal, but the processor isn't actually DOING anything to the incoming Master Audio signal?

In other words, when we watch discs with DTS-HD MA tracks, the receiver is showing "DTSHD + Neural:X," but I don't NEED the upmixer in the cases of plain 5.1 or 7.1 surround mixes -- is it actually "adding" anything to those tracks, or is it just a cosmetic notation on the display?

I suppose the same thing could be asked about Dolby signals -- if we're watching a disc with a standard Dolby Digital 5.1 surround track and the Denon applies Dolby Surround after that, is the signal being "enhanced" in any way being that we only have five speakers? I truly cannot grasp how these upmixers work and what they're doing.

Really curious to see if you discover why it is doing this forcing of the last applied processing on subsequent - when you don't even need it to apply it. I haven't noticed that happening to me when I had older Denons when I had 2.0 stereo (or 4.1 surround) content that I wanted upmixed to 5.1 Pro-Logic II or DTS: NEO. Also, lots of other good questions in your part 2 with the tonal control. ......Hopefully people don't give you the rote: "well, how does it sound to you?" mind-numbing question.
* I found an hour long review of this model on youtube, from some European Denon reps. Not exciting, but might answer a few questions. And if you could contact those guys, I'm wondering if they'd have answers for you (though I don't see their contact info.
* I'll also mention your quest in Home Theater Enthusiasts on facebook for any others who may have some specific insight.
* Lastly, there is some discussions of this amp on avforums.com, but they are talking about streaming. Still, the users might have answers.

Hoping you find answers.

 

[Kaskade1309]

Thanks Jim. I've just about lost my patience with people on another forum over this, and there doesn't seem to be any answers, so I am going to go back to my old Onk.

 

[Kaskade1309]

I'm gonna give a look at that video you provided; thanks for that. I also appreciate reaching out to those peeps. It basically comes down to needing this dumb upmixer because that's the way it works -- if I keep the upmixer OFF, it won't automatically steer two-channel soundtracks from discs into the proper channels. So, every time I switch between a disc with surround sound and one with a 2.0 mix, I have to press a button -- in the PLII days, this was all done automatically via a source assign menu. I absolutely HATE these new receivers.

I don't expect any feedback from anyone here outside of you (par for the course), but I appreciate everything you've done.

Did you get my PMs?

 

[Kaskade1309]

Had some additional thoughts...

The problem boils down to this: I don't really want to use the Dolby Surround/DTS Neural:X upmixer on anything but two-channel signals (so dialogue in a film soundtrack is steered correctly into the center), but the Denon seems to force these upmixers on to everything based on the codec -- so if I watch, say, a disc with a Dolby TrueHD soundtrack and the last time I watched something in Dolby with an upmixer engaged, it will automatically apply the upmixer to the TrueHD track. I don't want this because we only have a 5.1 system and don't need the upmixing (the same thing happens with DTS signals).

I don't understand what is happening with upmixers engaged on a 5.1 speaker system. If I watch a disc with, say, Dolby Atmos or Dolby TrueHD, and the Dolby Surround upmixer is applied, what is happening? Does it "change" the 5.1 or 7.1 mix somehow? It seems the ONLY way I can automatically engage the upmixer when I need it -- for, say, two-channel soundtracks -- is to leave the upmixer on all the time for ALL Dolby and DTS signals on this Denon. Otherwise, I have to physically press the receiver's MOVIE button on the remote and select the Dolby Surround/Neural:X upmixer every time I watch a disc that needs it. That is VERY inconvenient compared to the Pro Logic II system on my previous amp.

Additionally -- I have been keeping the "Speaker Virtualization" setting in the Denon's setup menu ON, and from what I understand, this engages a psuedo-Atmos experience when there's no Atmos system set up. However, we are running, as I said, a 5.1 system but with the surrounds in the CEILING...so does this Virtualization work in this case? Is it better to leave it off?

 

[Kaskade1309]

Really curious to see if you discover why it is doing this forcing of the last applied processing on subsequent - when you don't even need it to apply it. I haven't noticed that happening to me when I had older Denons when I had 2.0 stereo (or 4.1 surround) content that I wanted upmixed to 5.1 Pro-Logic II or DTS: NEO.

Hey Again Jim,

Indeed -- I wish they never got rid of Pro Logic II/DTS Neo:6 on AV amps; it was SO convenient because the systems could be assigned to automatically engage for two-channel signals. Please see my last post about what all this boils down to and what I am trying to do with this new AVR...

Also, lots of other good questions in your part 2 with the tonal control. ......Hopefully people don't give you the rote: "well, how does it sound to you?" mind-numbing question.

I discovered how the TONE control works on the Denon; you have to go into the OPTIONS menu via the remote and select TONE ON OR OFF and then scroll down to adjust bass and treble. It's like a hidden "locked" menu; I don't want to use the tone controls anyway, but I was just curious with regard to how to access them.

I'm still confused on the "Channel Adjust" menu under the OPTION key, which allows you to adjust the channel levels of each speaker -- but isn't that what is set when you first calibrate the unit under the main setup menu? What is this "Channel Adjust" for then? You can raise or lower each speaker under this menu, but is this just for adjusting that source you're watching/listening to on the fly, in that moment?

* I found an hour long review of this model on youtube, from some European Denon reps. Not exciting, but might answer a few questions. And if you could contact those guys, I'm wondering if they'd have answers for you (though I don't see their contact info.

I reached out to Denon already, but I get a series of bot replies; it's so frustrating because they're not even UNDERSTANDING what I am asking, evidenced by the crypic responses.

* I'll also mention your quest in Home Theater Enthusiasts on facebook for any others who may have some specific insight.
* Lastly, there is some discussions of this amp on avforums.com, but they are talking about streaming. Still, the users might have answers.

Hoping you find answers.

I checked that thread out on AVForums, but it doesn't really relate to what I am asking; I am actually already a member there and have participated in threads related to this model Denon, but there have been no concrete replies regarding the way these upmixers work with a 5.1 setup.

 

[JohnRice]

it will automatically apply the upmixer to the TrueHD track. I don't want this because we only have a 5.1 system and don't need the upmixing (the same thing happens with DTS signals).

I have been keeping the "Speaker Virtualization" setting in the Denon's setup menu ON, and from what I understand, this engages a psuedo-Atmos experience when there's no Atmos system set up.

You seriously don't see the connection there?

 

[Kaskade1309]

Okay Jim,

Made some more headway with this situation and because, as you and I discussed privately, no one seems to be reading the questions that I am asking coherently based on the quasi-facetious feedback, I'll just skip to where I'm at now with this. Any helpful input based on your knowledge of Denons would be welcomed, good friend.

First of all, I have discovered (I THINK) how these Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixers are behaving with regard to the input signals -- by selecting the AUTO sound mode under the yellow PURE button on the remote, the AVR seems to play the core incoming signal (whether it's Dolby Digital, DTS, DTS Master Audio, etc.) ALONG WITH the corresponding upmixer for that CODEC. So, when Dolby signals play, the Dolby Surround upmixer is applied, and when DTS signals are played, the DTS Neural:X upmixer is applied. I don't really want this, but it seems to be the only way to get the upmixers to automatically engage when I need them, which is during TWO CHANNEL playback of stereo or mono tracks.

In other words, if I want the upmixers to be applied only to two-channel signals automatically (without having to continuously press the sound mode key on the remote), I have to keep the upmixers engaged even when watching standard 5.1 tracks...

Now therein lies my current dilemma, and it's something I'm in talks with Denon about because I can't seem to get any answers via online forums: when these upmixers are applied to standard 5.1 surround tracks on a 5.1 system like mine, are they doing anything to the sound? Are they altering these tracks in any way? My wife and I can't seem to hear any difference when switching back and forth between upmixer on and the raw 5.1 mix decoded properly -- I would think, because there are no overhead speakers to "upmix" to in a 5.1 system when playing 5.1 tracks, the upmixers would simply be ignored during playback of this content, though I'm not 100-percent sure.

Do you see what I'm asking?

I put emails into Dolby Labs AND DTS about this but have heard nothing from them.

The other issue is the so-called SPEAKER VIRTUALIZATION setting in the Denon's main setup menu -- supposedly, this is for creating a "pseudo Atmos effect" on a 5.1 system when you play an Atmos track. I confirmed this works, because when I turn the Virtualization ON in the menu, the Denon's front panel reads "Dolby Atmos" and when I turn it OFF, those Atmos tracks drop back to the core Dolby TrueHD mix (with the Dolby Surround upmixer engaged). I understand how that works.

The problem is this: first, I don't know if I should be using the Speaker Virtualization (it may be called Speaker VIRTUALIZER) because our two regular surround speakers are in the ceiling -- supposedly, the Virtualizer creates "pseudo Atmos" effects to make it seem like you have "phantom" overhead speakers in a 5.1 setup, but it's also assuming you have five BED LEVEL speakers. Our surrounds are in the ceiling.

Further, I do not know if the Virtualizer, when ON, is affecting the UPMIXERS because they automatically engage, as I stated above. From everything I have read online, when the Speaker Virtualizer/Virtualization feature is ON, the core signals ARE affected by the upmixers, and thus are altering the sound in some fashion. I can't confirm this with my own ears, but if that is what's actually happening, I do not want it.

I'm still so confused about a myriad of things concerning this AVR, but if you could share any thoughts or ideas you may have, I'd appreciate it greatly.

Thanks brother.

 

[JohnRice]

OK.

This needs to be addressed. I'm concerned some unwitting individual will wander in here looking for help on a particular issue, and come away completely misinformed and intimidated. That person or persons are the only reason I took the time to double check and clarify this.

I have multiple systems, all based on Marantz receivers or processors. Fortunately, Marantz and Denon are the same company and employ the same logic systems. In addition, the system in my living room conveniently is a 5.1 configuration using a Marantz SR7012 receiver.

I already knew it all works correctly when it's properly configured, but I selected 2.0, 5.1 and Atmos discs just to absolutely verify it. As far as I know, generally current surround processors use a "Last Mode"system to select what processing configuration to use for various soundtracks. For me at least, that works great. When I get a new processor, I only have to occasionally adjust my processing choice (such as upmixing: ex. Neural X or Dolby Surround) once for any situation, and it goes back to it automatically when needed. I've had the SR7012 for 5 years and the AV7703 in my HT for 6 1/2 years, and haven't had to change any surround settings since the first week I had either one.

I took my three discs to the living room 5.1 system. The first was the 2.0 DTS, which correctly played back with Neural X, which is what I had selected years ago for that situation. Dialog in the center and surround sounds matrixed to the surrounds.

Then I tried the Atmos disc, which also has a 5.1 soundtrack. When I selected the Atmos soundtrack, it showed up as Dolby TrueHD 7.1, with no upmixing, and played it back in 5.1. The receiver and player are Atmos capable, but the speaker setup is only 5.1, so even when I selected the Atmos soundtrack, it only identified the 7.1 core, as it should. Then I selected the Dolby TrueHD 5.1 soundtrack, which showed up as Dolby TrueHD 5.1, with no upmixing, and played back as 5.1.

Finally, I tried a DTS HD 5.1 disc, which showed up exactly as it should as DTS HD 5.1 with no upmixing, played back as 5.1.

Personally, I think modern equipment throws in a lot of unnecessary bells and whistles, and if someone just goes in and starts turning on all these random "improvement" settings without understanding them or believing everything extra is a good thing, then stuff just gets screwy and unpredictable, not to mention simply producing unwanted results. it's the same with TVs. None of those "improvement" options actually improves things, and more often than not, screws up the image.

So, bottom line, YES, current processors do work the way they should. They do NOT do all sorts of random, unexplained things, as long as the user doesn't just randomly change things they don't understand. And yes, again, they have too many unneeded and detrimental options. Just leave that crap alone and turned off.

 

[Kaskade1309]

Jim,

I received this from someone I trust and who frequents the AVS Forum (he's something of an Oppo expert and runs his own home theater consulting business, so he kind of knows his shit):

Don’t worry about these displays. The Surround modes have no work to do when playing 5.1 or 7.1 content into a 5.1 speaker configuration.

So you can leave the Dolby or DTS surround mode selected and be comfortable that it isn’t doing any thing unless you are playing Stereo or Mono content,

The VIRTUALIZER setting is a different thing. You can decide whether you like it better On or Off when playing Atmos content. Since you have no Height speakers (the fact that your Side Surrounds are installed in the ceiling does not make them Height speakers) the Virtualizer has no work to do unless playing an Atmos track.

The Virtualizer does the same thing that’s touted for Atmos playback in sound bars. That is, it does audio manipulation (typically de-correlation of timing) to fool the ears into thinking the surround content — and in particular the content for Height channels — is coming from a location away from the sound bar.

Seems more of a concrete answer in terms of what's going on with these upmixer systems; just wanted to forward it off to you in case it helps you or someone you know.

 

[Kaskade1309]

Just to add to what's been said already, I came across the following statement from someone on the Audioholics forum who claims that he can hear a difference on a 5.1 system when engaging the upmixers.

Any thoughts on this? Please take specific note of the areas I italicized:

I'm using a 5.1 setup myself and there is an audible difference when applying DSU to 5.1 tracks in a 5.1 setup. It's not a significant difference but it is steering things around a bit differently even with Virtualization off.

So, experiment with it. All tracks aren't equal either and some will sound better with DSU applied while others will sound better with DTS applied.

He also said this:

Well, remember DSU and DTSN:X are for sending info to height speakers. Virtualization is faking height channels so that DSU and DTSN:X can process the audio so that sound seems to come from above the listener. So, if using a 5.1 setup, turn on virtual speakers to get more out of both formats. Using the upmixers without virtual speakers on will not get you much. You will also miss out when playing back real atmos and DTS:X tracks. I’m saying that, with 2.0 and 5.1, turn on virtual speakers and use DSU and DTS Neural:X. PCM/Dolby tracks will be output as Dolby Surround 5.1, Atmos tracks will be output as Atmos 5.1. With DTS, PCM/DTS tracks will be output as DTS Neural:X or Virtual:X. DTS:X tracks will skip Neural processing and go right to DTS Virtual:X. I’m not sure about your receiver’s ability to cross upmix.

It's almost as if he's contradicting himself in the second paragraph by saying "Using the upmixers without virtual speakers on will not get you much."

 

[Kaskade1309]

Okay, J, now I'm REALLY confused.

I came across the following post in another form that asks the exact same question I had about 5.1 systems and "upmixing" with 5.1 content, and according to what he said, Denon told him that the upmixers do in fact affect the core 5.1 mixes when the upmixers are "on."

I have a Denon X3800H in a 5.1.4 layout. In order to test some features, I configured Preset 2 to a 5.1 layout and was surprised to see that DD 5.1 gets the default Dolby Surround mode and DTS Surround defaults to +Neural:X. In other words, 5.1 sources are being upmixed in a 5.1 layout. In my earlier non-spatial AVRs, PLIIx and Neo:6 could not be applied to 5.1 source material since the content is already 5.1. So, I emailed Denon support and they replied:

When the AVR-X3800H applies upmixers like Dolby Surround or Neural to a 5.1 source such as Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS Surround, it enhances the audio experience by expanding the surround sound field and optimizing audio quality. Despite the source already containing the necessary channels for a 5.1 setup (Front L/R, Center, Surround L/R, and possibly LFE), these upmixing technologies analyze and enrich the audio, improving spatial distribution and overall clarity. This ensures a more immersive listening experience tailored to your specific speaker configuration, enhancing both the realism and enjoyment of your home theater setup.

So, is it true that DSU and Neural:X are doing more than simply redirecting sound to unused speakers? If so, what are they doing? I see that Dolby Surround must be On in order to engage the Speaker Virtualizer with 5.1 content. But, what else is it doing?

Based on the response from Denon, the upmixers do affect 5.1 tracks on a 5.1 setup, though they claim it's to a "benefit" of creating more spatial activity and all the other marketing jargon they used.

Do you have any thoughts about this? I can't really tell if the audio is being literally changed when I switch back and forth between the raw Dolby/DTS signals and then when the upmixers are engaged. Even though Denon is claiming there's an "improvement," I really don't want the base 5.1 signals messed with in any way, especially since we have overhead surrounds (I only want the upmixers to steer 2.0 signals properly and automatically).

 

[Kaskade1309]

Nothing like supreme, unabashed patronizing.....right Jim?

For the sake of ensuring clarification -- and this is the only reason I am responding to the misleading rhetoric that's being spewed above -- there is absolutely no intent to confuse, mislead or otherwise dissuade anyone with regard to spatial mapping and how it's implemented in new AVRs. That was not the direct intent, and any suggestion otherwise is downright inaccurate.

Now, Jim, as you and I have been talking about privately, if anyone took the time to actually read what I wrote in the previous posts, the issues I am experiencing with this new Denon have to do with the way the upmixers are behaving with 5.1 soundtracks played back on a 5.1 system that happens to have in-ceiling surrounds over the MLP...but, more importantly, it doesn't have anything to do with "turning all that crap off," as I am attempting to understand how the Speaker Virtualization system works in conjunction with the Dolby Surround Upmixer because I do have a 5.1 setup. Virtualization was specifically designed to utilize standard surrounds in a 5.1 arrangement and create a phantom Atmos effect -- but in my case, because our speakers are in the ceiling, I am unsure if this is wise. Further, when I turn Virtualizer on and off, it also seems to activate/deactivate the "Atmos" light on the AVR, so it does send the Atmos signal when on (even though I'm probably getting the core TrueHD signal anyway).

The problem here is how the Virtualizer is working in conjunction with the Dolby Surround Upmixer because, as I stated exhaustively at this point, I keep the DSU on due to the fact that I want to be able to have the system automatically upmix two-channel content -- despite what is being reported about "these systems do work as intended" and how I am being falsely accused of "just pushing things without knowing how they work" (not verbatim). On MY setup, the upmixers don't seem to be just allowing me to "set it and forget it," because if I turn them OFF and just listen to the core/base 5.1 mix in Dolby Digital, TrueHD, DTS, DTS Master Audio, etc., I would have to press the MOVIE button on the remote EVERY time I switch to a disc with a two-channel track.

THAT'S what I am trying to avoid, but it seems to be going by the wayside in terms of me attempting to explain what I'm after here (though you did say privately that you totally understand).

In OUR case, we watch varying types of disc-based media ALL THE TIME and often switch from discs with 5.1 soundtracks to those with 2.0 mixes, and I don't want to have to keep pressing that button to select a sound mode EVERY TIME. The previous Pro Logic II system on older AVRs did this automatically and perfectly.

Sure, the upmixers will remember the last time you used Dolby Digital FOR Dolby Digital and DTS FOR DTS and then apply that mode for the next viewing -- the problem becomes when I play a disc with a TWO-CHANNEL soundtrack after that and the upmixer ISN'T engaged, forcing the two-channel track into the wrong speakers. On this new Denon, that's what's happening, anyway -- the AVR is recalling the last used sound format based on CODEC, not CHANNEL NUMBER...and that's the difference that no one wants to acknowledge.

The ONLY workaround I have found for this is to leave the upmixers -- both Dolby's Surround and DTS' Neural:X -- active all the time alongside the core track that's being processed (so Dolby Digital signals will read "DD + DSurr" and DTS HD Master Audio signals will read "DTSHD + Neural:X"), as in this way, the upmixers WILL engage automatically for TWO-CHANNEL material I need matrixed.

Incidentally -- it isn't only FILM based content I need the upmixer for with regard to TWO-CHANNEL content. When discs load and trailers/promos play, these are normally encoded in some kind of non-surround format, and the upmixer needs to read and steer these properly, along with extras on a disc or even the setup menus. Without the upmixers engaged, these additional elements of a disc won't come out of the right speakers -- and that makes a difference to me.

So, the problem has become....if these upmixers are on all the time with my 5.1 setup, are they actually AFFECTING the sound of 5.1 soundtracks in any way? I can't get an answer on that; some say they definitely are, some say ignore it -- even Denon acknowledged that the systems DO in fact affect the 5.1 systems. I emailed Dolby and DTS and never heard back from them, and they ultimately would have the answer.

The Virtualizer introduces another issue -- because it does allow the ATMOS light to illuminate on my AVR, and that's cool, I like seeing it (even though, again, we're getting the same core TrueHD signal essentially). But from what I have been reading, keeping this ON will in fact interact with the Dolby Surround Upmixer when THAT'S on, ultimately changing the sound we're hearing in a simple 5.1 setup...and I'm NOT cool with that.

I can't even get into the whole DTS:X and DTS Virtual thing now.....

I realize the underlying issue is that I'm running a speaker system that's considered "outdated" to these new AVRs, thus it's causing all sorts of "confusion" with regard to these new upmixers and their roles. Ideally, we should have at least two height channels running for a 5.1.2 setup, but we don't right now -- so it's almost like new receivers aren't really for rooms like ours.

Anyway, wanted to clarify a host of things here because some of what was being lobbed simply wasn't accurate. Looking forward to your thoughts, Jim (I know you said you were working on some feedback privately).

**Addendum: I received this added tidbit of info from someone else who seems to have some knowledge regarding what D&M AVRs have been doing:

Yeah, despite Denon's claims about the Dolby Surround/Neural:X upmixer actually doing anything to the 5.1 signal with a 5.1 speaker configuration, I believe they're incorrect, unfortunately I can't find the forum thread where this was touched upon but it had been a pet peeve for many owners & it was Denon themselves acknowledging this was simply a "cosmetic" issue that they were unwilling to rectify, annoyingly they have been true to their word & it hasn't been changed for the past 10 years when the first Dolby Atmos/Dolby Surround & DTS:X/Neural:X equipped AVRs were released back in 2014, I believe this cosmetic bug is exclusive to D+M AVRs but not absolutely certain on that.

 

[JimJasper]

Comment in #7 above is discouragingly patronizing.
Comments in #9 above have some helpful detail, but at the cost of more patronizing.

----------------------------------------
What you are talking about - concerns that upmixing is forced - is intriguing. It's something I've worried about, now that our society has embraced more and more AI and more "smart" devices - just taking over machines we rely on in life....and doing so more and more.

I've followed what you have said, and your key quotes from multiple sources: reports are definitely in conflict about this enhancement debacle etc. Wow, you are not alone. I don't have this new Denon model, or an older Marantz like the other #9 post, but after reading what you've said, I'm inclined to think that you are not getting the results you are expecting.

Are the "enhancements" affecting your sound? Based on everything you are saying and the handful of reports, it sounds like yes, the receiver is forcing the enhancements and affecting the sound or sound placement, as well as inconveniently coordinating mixes from content to content.

Yet the humble fact that you honestly don't notice much a difference when trying to change them - enhanced vs core - sounds like the enhancements are minimal. BUT IT LEAVES ONE WONDERING. Not to mention: are more receivers going to start doing this?! My earlier (Denon) model never did. It's all intriguing to me, however. Hard for me to say much more because there is not one in front of me to watch all of these moving parts (plus some other concerns you've had about the model in your post #1 above, via the lower part).

It's not much, but the last things I'm pondering are:
* you making a video of your concerns to post on YouTube (showing the receiver in action) would be great to get some other feedback, since there are multiple things going on. Posting a YouTube video would cast a wider net. Though it might be an awkward project to put together.
* It would be fascinating if you went to the CES this coming January (in 6 months, usually in Las Vegas), and asked about these exact issues with some reps. They'd probably love to cus n discus `em!
* I don't think having a 5.1 set up should be too much of a concern: I imagine the companies should realize this & accommodate it, imo.

Curious if others come across this thread's sound mode topic, specifically for this Denon model's generation: the AVR-X2800H model or AVR-X3800H.

 

[Kaskade1309]

Thanks very much my friend -- will be back to respond to your comments directly soon.

 

[Kaskade1309]

Okay Jim -- I think I finally have the functionality of the upmixers on my new Denon X2800 down (though there isn't any confirmation from Denon or some others I consulted with on it, as it relates to my 5.1 setup).

From what I am being told by other seasoned Denon owners, the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixers do NOT affect 5.1 (or 7.1, in my case) soundtracks on discs in a 5.1 system because there isn't anything to "upmix," per se -- however, they can be left engaged when playing all content so that 2.0 mono and stereo tracks (whether Dolby or DTS encoded) are steered properly and automatically (I don't have to push the green MOVIE sound mode button each time a different format with a different channel count is played). As such, all content I play through the 2800 displays like this on the front panel:

Dolby Digital: "DD + DSurr"
Dolby TrueHD/Atmos: "DTHD + DSurr"
Dolby Stereo: "Dolby Surround"

DTS: "DTS + Neural:X"
DTS-HD Master Audio: "DTSHD + Neural:X"
DTS 2.0: "DTS Neural:X"
DTS:X: "DTS:X"

Now, before I get into the reservations I have regarding what's going on here, let me briefly express my concerns about DTS:X -- from my understanding, this is the DTS equivalent of Dolby's Atmos, thus it requires overhead channels for full immersion. If this is the case, why do DTS:X soundtracks played back on my 5.1 system show as "DTS:X" on the front panel of my 2800 and not as the core DTS-HD MA track? I have the "DTS Neural:X" SURROUND PARAMETER (in the main setup menu under the AUDIO section) turned off, as I assumed this controlled DTS audio like the "Speaker Virtualizer" controlled Dolby content, but it doesn't seem to make a difference -- all DTS:X tracks are displayed as DTS:X on the Denon's front panel. This isn't a "problem," but I am just curious as to why this is happening with a 5.1 system and with DTS Virtualizer and Neural:X turned off. Shouldn't these be played as the core Master Audio tracks?

In relation to that, I have confirmed that the Speaker Virtualizer must indeed be turned ON in order for Atmos signals to display as "Dolby Atmos" on the front of the AVR (again, with a 5.1 setup); with the Virtualizer OFF, the TrueHD core is processed and shown on the front panel as "DTHD." I understand this, as the Virtualizer is instructing the AVR to mimic overhead channels, and as such, the Atmos signal is engaged. However, here is my question: does leaving the Virtualizer ON when watching discs WITHOUT Atmos "mess with" the 5.1 and 7.1 soundtracks on discs when the upmixers are also engaged? In other words, I have read that the Virtualizer works in conjunction with the Dolby Surround upmixer, so if I am leaving the DSU on with all non-Atmos content and the Virtualizer is turned on, is this affecting the 5.1 tracks in any way?

Some have said that the Virtualizer and the upmixers would be working against each other if they're engaged at the same time based on what they do, yet others (including Denon) claim the Dolby Surround upmixer definitely works in conjunction with the Virtualizer for non-Atmos stuff.

There's also a strange thing going on with regard to the way the display of the 2800 is reacting after we watch discs on our Panny UHD BD deck -- during playback, the AVR reads (as I stated above) "DD" or "DTS" or whatever the incoming signal is, plus the upmixer mode (DSurr or Neural:X), but when I stop playback fully on the Panasonic (by pressing STOP twice on the remote), the Denon drops the "+Upmixer" designation on the display and just shows the core track that was being processed (for example "Dolby THD" or "DTS-HD." This DOESN'T happen when playing SDR (standard dynamic range) content from DVDs -- only when watching Blu-rays or UHD Blu-rays (so when I stop playback of a DVD, the display continues to read "DD + DSurr" or whatever it may be.

Do you know why the Denons behave like this, or is something wrong with my setup? I have a suspicion it's connected to the engagement of the upmixers with all 5.1 content (so maybe they ARE actually affecting 5.1 tracks when engaged on my 5.1 setup) but I can't be sure.

 

[greggor]

I've helped set up several Denons and Marantz receivers and I think you are way overcomplicating everything. The receiver will auto decode the source sound track when watching a streaming movie, DVD, television etc. The only thing the AVR's sound formats affect is 2 channel content. Your Denon knows you have a 5.1 system if you configured it correctly during set up and will send the correct sound to the appropriate speakers.

With multi-channel your Denon automatically decodes the sound track in the proper format as per the format that is available, selected or what it is streamed in.

If you're watching 2 channel content and you want faux surround sound, select the option you think sounds best and your Denon will send the sound to the correct speakers based on your 5.1 set up. If you forget to deselect the format you chose to use and are watching multichannel content then you will hear the content as it was intended to be heard. In other words you won't hear a dolby atmos sound track in neural x etc....

Only when you go back to 2 channel content will your Denon default to the last setting for two channel. You can use a preset for quick switching back and forth if that would make it easier for you. For example preset 1 could be just 2 channel stereo, preset 2 could be for 2 channel tracks in your favorite simulated surround format for music. Preset 3 could be for 2 channel movies in one of the faux movie surround formats etc. You could make several presets for different internal coding if you so choose.

I have an older Pioneer Elite and prefer the way the Denons handle decoding much better and I think switching between different sound modes is much easier on the Denon. Watching a DTS movie and changing the surround sound modes won't change the way the AVR decodes the DTS format, (I use DTS as just an example and it applies to any format that your AVR will automatically decode).

 

[Kaskade1309]

I've helped set up several Denons and Marantz receivers and I think you are way overcomplicating everything. The receiver will auto decode the source sound track when watching a streaming movie, DVD, television etc. The only thing the AVR's sound formats affect is 2 channel content. Your Denon knows you have a 5.1 system if you configured it correctly during set up and will send the correct sound to the appropriate speakers.

With multi-channel your Denon automatically decodes the sound track in the proper format as per the format that is available, selected or what it is streamed in.

If you're watching 2 channel content and you want faux surround sound, select the option you think sounds best and your Denon will send the sound to the correct speakers based on your 5.1 set up. If you forget to deselect the format you chose to use and are watching multichannel content then you will hear the content as it was intended to be heard. In other words you won't hear a dolby atmos sound track in neural x etc....

Only when you go back to 2 channel content will your Denon default to the last setting for two channel. You can use a preset for quick switching back and forth if that would make it easier for you. For example preset 1 could be just 2 channel stereo, preset 2 could be for 2 channel tracks in your favorite simulated surround format for music. Preset 3 could be for 2 channel movies in one of the faux movie surround formats etc. You could make several presets for different internal coding if you so choose.

I have an older Pioneer Elite and prefer the way the Denons handle decoding much better and I think switching between different sound modes is much easier on the Denon. Watching a DTS movie and changing the surround sound modes won't change the way the AVR decodes the DTS format, (I use DTS as just an example and it applies to any format that your AVR will automatically decode).

I appreciate the reply, Greg.

I'm not trying to overcomplicate things purposely; I just didn't understand how these systems work because the last time we bought an AV receiver was in 2007, and back then you could assign specific sound modes for each codec. These upmixers are more confusing in that way, and I was trying to express that.

Now, I understand pretty much everything you're saying above, but my primary concern was whether the upmixers being engaged for everything we watch were going to affect 5.1 signals -- in other words, when we watch something with a Dolby signal, the AVR will say "DD + DSurr," indicating the Dolby Surround upmixer IS active. I don't want the upmixer to do anything because we only have a 5.1 setup, but the only way I can get two-channel content to be automatically matrixed properly is to leave the upmixers engaged all the time like this. Do you see what I'm saying?

I didn't want to have to press the green MOVIE button on the receiver's remote every time we switched from a disc with 5.1 surround to one with a 2.0 track -- I want that to be automatic, like it was with my previous AVR, so the only way around that is to leave the upmixers on with EVERYTHING.

In so doing, I was worried that the upmixers are somehow "messing with" the standard 5.1 signal because it SAYS "+DSurr" or "+DTS Neural:X" on the display...does that make sense?

The DTS:X thing is a different matter -- I don't know why the AVR reads "DTS:X" on the front when we don't have overhead speakers installed.

Any help you can continue to provide would be appreciated.

 

[greggor]

I appreciate the reply, Greg.

I'm not trying to overcomplicate things purposely; I just didn't understand how these systems work because the last time we bought an AV receiver was in 2007, and back then you could assign specific sound modes for each codec. These upmixers are more confusing in that way, and I was trying to express that.

Now, I understand pretty much everything you're saying above, but my primary concern was whether the upmixers being engaged for everything we watch were going to affect 5.1 signals -- in other words, when we watch something with a Dolby signal, the AVR will say "DD + DSurr," indicating the Dolby Surround upmixer IS active. I don't want the upmixer to do anything because we only have a 5.1 setup, but the only way I can get two-channel content to be automatically matrixed properly is to leave the upmixers engaged all the time like this. Do you see what I'm saying?

I do understand what you are saying. Let's say you're watching a dolby digital movie from a streaming service and you have one of the 2 channel upmixers selected, and let's say that the movie you're streaming is in 7.1 but you only have a 5.1 system. Your Denon will decode it in the format it is being streamed in and it will automatically decode the dolby digital content as it was intended while sending the appropriate signals to your 5.1 configuration. It will automatically do this for dolby atmos or any of the other surround formats your receiver decodes.

I didn't want to have to press the green MOVIE button on the receiver's remote every time we switched from a disc with 5.1 surround to one with a 2.0 track -- I want that to be automatic, like it was with my previous AVR, so the only way around that is to leave the upmixers on with EVERYTHING.

You can leave the upmixer of your choice selected all the time and it will not effect dolby digitial, multi-channel formats. It is only active when watching two channel matrixed content.

In so doing, I was worried that the upmixers are somehow "messing with" the standard 5.1 signal because it SAYS "+DSurr" or "+DTS Neural:X" on the display...does that make sense?

I'll do more research on this but as stated above I don't believe the sound mode you have selected for two channel has any impact on multi-channel DD content. In other words I don't believe it is messing with the 5.1 signal at all. It is displayed because you have it selected for 2 channel content. I know you can select the info button while watching a movie or listening to music and it will tell you the source format and the format it is outputting the sound in. I'll get back to you on this and hope I am not mistaken on whether or not the Denon is applying matrixing you don't want. Have you switched back and forth by deselecting the "upmixer" during DD, and if so can you hear a change in the sound?

The DTS:X thing is a different matter -- I don't know why the AVR reads "DTS:X" on the front when we don't have overhead speakers installed.

I think this is where things can get very confusing with the AVR's decoding. First: Your Denon knows that you don't have ceiling speakers so instead of trying to send signals to speakers it knows you don't have it sends the signals that would go to ceiling speakers to your surround and fronts. IE, To some extent front ceiling speakers would be mixed to your two fronts and the two rear ceiling speakers would be mixed with your rear surrounds. Your Denon will "blend" the sound from the missing speakers with the speakers you do have. Your receiver reads DTS:X because it is still decoding the DTS:X while making the best use of your 5.1 configuration.

Any help you can continue to provide would be appreciated.

I just hope I'm not making this even more confusing.

 

[greggor]

Now, I understand pretty much everything you're saying above, but my primary concern was whether the upmixers being engaged for everything we watch were going to affect 5.1 signals -- in other words, when we watch something with a Dolby signal, the AVR will say "DD + DSurr," indicating the Dolby Surround upmixer IS active. I don't want the upmixer to do anything because we only have a 5.1 setup, but the only way I can get two-channel content to be automatically matrixed properly is to leave the upmixers engaged all the time like this. Do you see what I'm saying?

After doing a bit of research on how the Denon applies upmixing to DD content it DOES appear that they do in fact alter the signal by applying the upmixing that is selected. The only way around this would be to bring the OSD up or look at your front panel on your AVR to see what processing is selected and then change it to auto decode the source material if you don't want any processing. Sorry for the confusion I may have caused. I would make a few custom presets. 1 for watching 2 channel movie content in surround sound using the processing of your choice, another one for 2 channel music and one for watching dolby digital content with no processing, and of course you could make more if you like. You would then be able to very quickly switch between the presets you create. I actually did a similar thing on my Pioneer utilizing the MCACC presets. I have a preset for movies with the speakers set to small and crossed over at 80hz and another preset for music with the speakers set to large for listening too two channel music. My pioneer only remembers the last sound mode I selected for each input and I believe your Onkyo was the same way. I am always playing around with the different modes as some sound better than others for different things.