Overhead "Envelop" Channel? (1 Viewer)

[Larry Chanin]

Hi Philip:
I want to sincerely thank you again for responding to my posting on this subject over at SMR's Lexicon Discussion & Support Forum, and as I said for "bringing me back down to earth".
However, don't you think you could have made your point just as effectively at this forum without closing your posting with the not so veiled suggestion that the folks experimenting with "pseudo" height effects were suckers?
Just food for thought during the holiday season.
Happy Holidays.
Larry

 

[Philip Brandes]

"However, don't you think you could have made your point just as effectively at this forum without closing your posting with the not so veiled suggestion that the folks experimenting with "pseudo" height effects were suckers?"

Sorry you misunderstood my point, despite the fact that I have restated it at least three times in my subsequent posts in this thread.

Once again, my point is not that these folks are "suckers"; rather, that the ones who are manipulating them are charlatans. I am not criticizing Wes or Joseph or others who may choose to experiment with alternate playback schemes they find enjoyable. Just how many times do i have to say that, Larry?

My P.T. Barnum comment was aimed at the perpetrators, not the victims, and frankly I think that meaning is clear even in the line you quoted. What I object to is the way peoples' natural curiosity and willingness to put their trust in a certain publication are being cynically exploited to promote a product by creating a completely mistaken impression that height channel information is being included in DVD releases, and that consumers are somehow missing out on it unless they implement some sort of add-on decoding scheme.

I find this marketing tactic reprehensible, not just because of this one example but because it is part of an ongoing pattern of exploitation. The SMART device was originally hyped as an EX dcoder--it is not. Now it is being hyped as a height channel extractor--it is not. And each time, Widescreen Review was right there, willfully disregarding any barriers between advertising and accepted journalistic standards of objectivity to promote this and other products.

Why does it matter? Because you and I have to pay for it, Larry. How much time and resources do manufacturers have to put into implementing bogus technologies like DTS 96/24 decoding purely because one publication preys on consumers' less discriminating knowledge to whip up market demand for it? Do you think that the R&D to implement such features is done out of charity? Hardly--they add considerably to the unit cost, as well as diverting limited development and production resources from features that might actually be useful. So we pay twice.

This isn't a case of an innocent mistake, it is a real problem with real consequences. Look at how many threads are popping up all over the Internet forums regarding the supposed height channel in "We Were Soldiers." People need to be aware not only that the information is not correct, but that the misconception is being deliberately cultivated for profit. Exercising more discrimination and healthy skepticism when it comes to situations like this is a good thing because, like it or not, there are plenty of P.T. Barnums out there.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

 

[JosephMoore]

Philip,
I for one, understand your point and the spirit in which you made it. I guess that there is so much incivility on forums that people's skins are worn a bit thin.

I'm glad to know the definitive answer on that particular disc (WWWS.) I'm still interested in adding an overhead channel, and I'm guessing the results will be quite pleasing, but now I won't waste my time fighting to properly decode a matrix that doesn't exist.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Philip Brandes]

Thanks for your understanding, Joseph.

The only one you have to satisfy with your system is you, and whatever gets you there is great. I'm simply trying to keep people from feeling obligated to change their setups because of a false set of assumptions and expectations.

Happy Holidays!
Philip Brandes

 

[Phil_DC]

Regarding WWS overhead channel,
If you read sndmixers post, they did in fact release WWS with the overhead mix on DVD that was limited to Arizona:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=3
So perhaps the SMART press release on the CS Jr decoding the overhead channel is accurate after all.

 

[GregLee]

Even if height information is not being deliberately encoded, it may still be there. For instance, if microphones recording a scene are spread out horizontally, they should pick up phase differences from sound sources in the same horizontal plane which are not present in sources overhead.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Quote:

Larry

 

[Philip Brandes]

Movie soundtracks are not created in the same way as a, say, a live orchestral recording, which appears to be the model you're applying here. In a film, microphones are not arranged in an array to capture a complete soundspace--even dialog that is actually used from the set (as opposed to very frequent overdubs) is recorded with highly directional mics. Sound effects, ambient reverb, etc. are all mixing engineer creations--there are no "natural" multi-mic interactions on the soundtrack. Therefore, any phase differences used to extract a "height" channel are accidental and arbitrary, and more likely to yield inappropriate results.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

 

[Phil_DC]

Larry,

Good catch, I did not read everything posted so I missed that.

 

[FrankB]

one would hope that they know enough about how their Circle Surround processing works to recognize that it does not even decode EX properly (rather than filtering the EX channel out of the surrounds as intended, it leaves those channels unprocessed and adds the extracted center). Nevertheless, they originally marketed their device (again erroneously) as an EX decoder

The CS-3X decoders have outputs for the properly processed side surround channels. When used with a 3 or 4 channel amplifier you can do proper EX decoding.

 

[Wes]

Just wanted to add a couple new mixes to the Overhead channel list, "Master and Commander" works great with my new channel. When the camera is down inside the ship the crew running around above on deck is clearly steered to the over head channel.
And "Return of the kings" had alot of action going on up there with the Elephants and the flying dragons!

Also just tried "Black Hawk Down" and this work really well with all the choppers flying overhead.

Wes

 

[Wes]

Has any one else played around with this yet? I am still enjoying my Over-Head channel and there are some great old and new 5.1/6.1 mixes that I am able create the Envelope channel with.

I feel/hope it will not be long before Dolby releases a PLIIx2 or something simular that creates this channel, until then I will still be using mine. My theater is always open from demos if your in the area.

Wes

 

[Kenneth Harden]

This would open up a whole new market for the sale of single in-ceiling speakers!

 

[Wes]

New update on great software that creates Overhead channel information.

Just watched War of the Worlds (2005) in dts and it had some excellent overhead channel information.
Stealth also had some great sound effects up there. There has been many more new releases that have also created some great action from above.

I am now running a Pioneer VSX1050 EX/ES 7.1 receiver with the Onkyo Prologic receiver creating the overhead Channel. I also have installed two matching Overhead channel speakers directly above my front row seating. I still would like to have a PLII receiver for the Overhead Channel to create a stereo effect up there but in time!

Wes

 

[Phil_DC]

Wes,

Are you sill using the LT & RT surround out to the CS-3X Jr to derive the the overhead channel in your 7.1 setup or did you switch to the Rear LT & RT surround out to the CS-3X Jr for the overhead?

 

[Wes]

I am still using the Side Surround L/R channel out of my 7.1 receiver to a Dolby Prologic receiver, then the Surround Channel of that DPL receiver is powering the Overhead Channel. Using a DPL2x will give you stereo Overhead channels also! The DPL receiver does nothing else in this set up! I never have used a CS-3X Jr, only DPL processing!
Wes

 

[Wes]

Just thought I would add to this thread adding Dolby PLIIz now incorporates the over head channel I have been playing with for a couple years now. Dolby has it installed upfront where I have mine directly overhead! Just thought it was interesting to see it's finally here! There may be other threads about this here but I have not been hanging out here much with so many other things going on!
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/experience/demos/dolby-pro-logic-iiz.html